Dear KAG: 20200617 Open Thread

It looks like the ball calling operation was successful.

Oh, well, little snowflake, here’s something to listen to while waiting for your court date in your mother’s basement…and you’re probably too young to remember all the explosions involved in this program, or that it was the good guys blowing stuff up.

And now for the obligatory message from our sponsors:

Here at the Q tree we believe in the concept of CIVIL open free speech and the discussion that fleshes out ideas. When commenting and participating in the OPEN discussion on this thread all comments MUST NOT CONTAIN personal threats, baiting, name calling, or other anti-social words fomenting hate, violence or destruction. Our host Wolfm00n has strict rules about that.

Fellow tree dweller Wheatie gave us some good reminders on the basics of civility in political discourse:

  1. No food fights.
  2. No running with scissors.
  3. If you bring snacks, bring enough for everyone.

In addition, it is requested that there be no swinging from the chandeliers, celebratory gunfire, messing around with the nuclear weapons, and, please, everyone wash your hands.

Please, do not forget to apply sunscreen after a sensible vitamin D bath and after swimming at a safe social distance from all the people in chlorinated pools, which must maintain enough chemicals to kill just about everything except the Wuhan Flu that somehow will travel six feet in densely hot and humid air…unless you live where I do – the land of the moonbats – where the local municipal pool will be closed for the entire summer. I MUST leave this video in this week. Sorry.

Please remember to remain locked and loaded and ready for trouble should the insurrectionists try to invade your space.

Those who have things to say that do not fit the generally accepted limits of “civil” discussion, Wolf has provided a venue known as the UTree which is currently going through its water cooler/canteen phase. Please, venture over there for any such thoughts and comments. This sort of thing is always a possibility on that site:

A few other vital notes:

Please, review these rules that our host Wolfm00n outlined toward the beginning of the growth of the tree itself. it won’t take long.

Ridiculing the other side, on the other hand…well….

__________________________________________________


MT 6:1-6, 16-18

Jesus said to his disciples:
“Take care not to perform righteous deeds
in order that people may see them;
otherwise, you will have no recompense from your heavenly Father.
When you give alms, do not blow a trumpet before you,
as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets
to win the praise of others.
Amen, I say to you, they have received their reward.
But when you give alms,
do not let your left hand know what your right is doing,
so that your almsgiving may be secret.
And your Father who sees in secret will repay you.

Verses 7-15 from a different translation:

 [7] And when you are praying, speak not much, as the heathens. For they think that in their much speaking they may be heard. [8] Be not you therefore like to them, for your Father knoweth what is needful for you, before you ask him. [9] Thus therefore shall you pray: Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. [10] Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

[11] Give us this day our supersubstantial bread. [12] And forgive us our debts, as we also forgive our debtors. [13] And lead us not into temptation. But deliver us from evil. Amen. [14] For if you will forgive men their offences, your heavenly Father will forgive you also your offences. [15] But if you will not forgive men, neither will your Father forgive you your offences.

“When you pray, do not be like the hypocrites,
who love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on street corners
so that others may see them.
Amen, I say to you, they have received their reward.
But when you pray, go to your inner room, close the door,
and pray to your Father in secret.
And your Father who sees in secret will repay you.

“When you fast, do not look gloomy like the hypocrites.
They neglect their appearance,
so that they may appear to others to be fasting.
Amen, I say to you, they have received their reward.
But when you fast, anoint your head and wash your face,
so that you may not appear to others to be fasting,
except to your Father who is hidden.
And your Father who sees what is hidden will repay you.”

Note that the Latin “debitas” is the word that is translated as “trespasses” in English due to the context even if the Jesuits at Douay in the late 16th century went the “debt” route. Don’t want to get into an argument about it. The matter was settled by linguists far more knowledgeable than me.

As always, prayers for the fight against that which seeks to enslave us are welcome. And this week, lots of prayers for those who have the virus, and those who have died due to it are part of daily prayer.

Have we buckled up?

And one more week…just ’cause.

625 thoughts on “Dear KAG: 20200617 Open Thread

  1. Hey DP, you might find this site helpful in your exploration of Bible translation. Here is apparently Every English translation for the verse Matthew 6: 12:

    https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Matthew%206:12

    Loosely, without counting, this appears to be the way that word is usually translated: debts, sins, tresspasses. There are also a few that say basically “forgive us as we forgive others”…

    Without digging deeply into the verse it is likely that the Original Language for the passage is Greek &/or Aramaic. So if you are referring to a Latin Translation that was later translated into English, like perhaps from the Latin Vulgate, you are already discussing an even more derivative interpretation of a passage since it has passed from the original to the Latin to the English (at least, perhaps it went through more language translations on its way to the current interpretation). Just some food for thought.

    In my lay opinion, though I do have a Master’s from a Christian Seminary, though in Counseling, so didn’t have to take the Bible Translation classes that MDiv peers took, it seems Likely that the best translation, or the more accurate translation, is one that goes from the original language(s) to the desired language, in this case English.

    It becomes challenging when translating idiomatic expressions for a literal translation risks meaninglessness in another language but trying to find a comparable idiomatic expression in the desired language might risk reducing the Divine Spark/Inspiration inherent in the original passage.

    For my own Bible study I tend to prefer the NIV, New International Version. It was translated (primarily I believe) in the 1980s by a team of biblical scholars attempting to use universally understood English language by English speakers around the world (my seminary OT professor was on one such translation committee so we heard a few “inside baseball” anecdotes). The use of footnotes was to denote, among other things, when the translation committee was unable to unanimously agree on the meaning/best translation of a given passage. The preferred version of the majority was placed into the text while the other version(s) was acknowledged in footnotes.

    I grew up with the King James Version & still enjoy its beauty & familiarity & often choose to use the NIV & KJV in parallel for certain devotional & blogging activities.

    BibleGateway.com can be a valuable tool in comparative Bible study. There are capabilities at the site I have yet to explore in the free offerings, let alone what is available in some of their subscription services.

    These thoughts are shared in love, Not contentiousness. No offense is intended–& since I don’t have a Catholic background I’m not aware of what, if any, of the above might come across offensively…so If I’ve inadvertently offended you–or anyone else reading this–please forgive me 🙂

    Here are a couple relevant examples of that passage, descriptors, like shared below for the NMB, are available at the link shared above, fyi:

    MATTHEW 6:12

    NIV And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.

    KJV And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

    CEB Forgive us for the ways we have wronged you, just as we also forgive those who have wronged us.

    CJB Forgive us what we have done wrong, as we too have forgiven those who have wronged us.

    CEV Forgive us for doing wrong, as we forgive others.

    EXB Forgive us for our ·sins [L debts], just as we have forgiven ·those who sinned against us [L our debtors; C sin is pictured as a debt owed].

    NMB And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive them that trespass against us.

    New Matthew Bible (NMB) Copyright © 2016 by Ruth Magnusson (Davis). All rights reserved

    That last one was the only one with Trespasses in the given list. I don’t know that there is Every English translation for I believe there is a “Jerusalem Bible” that was translated to English from the French & it’s not listed so the BC offering may not be showing Every possible English version…hmmm…

    Oh, finally, here’s the Latin Vulgate for comparison. Blessings!

    Matthaeus 6:12 Biblia Sacra Vulgata (VULGATE)

    12 et dimitte nobis debita nostra, sicut et nos dimittimus debitoribus nostris.

    Biblia Sacra Vulgata (VULGATE)
    by Public Domain

    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+6%3A12&version=VULGATE

    I’m pretty sure I learned the Lord’s prayer with the Trespasses version so there must be another English source than the NMB from 2016 for I learned it in the 60’s or the 70’s. Whenever the Lord’s prayer is said corporately in church services it seems that the crowd stumbles between trespasses & debts, as I expect you’ve also heard…

    Liked by 2 people

    1. Thank you, but I’m good. As a Catholic, I can only use Catholic sources. My preference is the Douay-Rheims, translated in the late 16th, early 17th centuries from the Vulgate by Jesuits who at the time were fluent in Latin and Greek. It’s still technically the official translation into English, but the bishops prefer a softer version.

      Most traditionalists use the Douay-Rheims, though.

      Liked by 1 person

      1. Are you saying that Catholicism Forbids people to do their own Bible research??? If so, well just wow. There are certain Protestants that are also restrictive, like to King James only…hmmm

        Like

        1. No, not at all. In fact, quite the opposite. We are encouraged to read daily, and Mass has multiple readings every day. Plus, the whole thing comes from the Bible.

          The issue is what Martin Luther did to Scripture following his leaving. He switched out the original Old Testament for the new fangled one that the Jerusalem Jews whittled out of the old one from about 100AD – 283 ish. And then he added and took out lines here and there from the New Testament. A lot of teachings that we are ridiculed for are in the books that Luther removed.

          Due to the continuity of the Faith, we’re to stick to tradition.

          Liked by 1 person

          1. Are you referring to the Apocrypha? I thought the issue with those other books was more along the lines of the Council of ? (Trent Maybe???) that “prayerfully” felt they didn’t really proclaim Christ like every other book of the Canon.

            I’m not familiar with the Jewish whittling you referred to. Frankly Church history wasn’t of much interest to me back when I had to take such classes in college &/or grad school.

            I thought part of Luther’s issue was getting scripture into the common language of the people so that religious leaders couldn’t lord it over the lay people & have the massive amount of (religious/political/social/fiscal) control over those who couldn’t read the Word of God/scripture for themselves.

            Also the indulgences, a form of selling grace, & bilking the people, was, I believe, one of Luther’s major issues. Honestly I’ve never read Luther’s 95 Theses (or the translation) so don’t know very much about what his very great concerns were with the Catholic Church of his day.

            It seems that at least part of all of these events was in God’s hands, like Paul & Silas separating from each other. It was a personal (P & S) &/or institutional (C vs L/P) upheaval, but the end result was that God & Jesus were proclaimed more widely in the world.

            Without Luther it’s unlikely that America would have taken the shape that she did. Those “protesting” forms of Christianity & the longing to breathe free & follow the Lord as one’s conscience dictated surely were part of the very foundation of the travels of the persecuted into the New Land & the Law that underpinned our Independence–like the 1st Amendment…

            Liked by 1 person

            1. You have to understand that the Apocrypha, as you refer to it, is in Catholic terms, the Greek Canon. Much of what Christ had to say is reflected in the books of Sirach, Wisdom, and the Macchabees pair. The Jerusalem Jews took them out because they were not written in Hebrew.

              The Catholic Apocrypha is the 22 books that did not make it into the New Testament at the Council of Carthage. This explains a lot of it.

              https://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=9069

              There were so many councils held in Carthage in the early centuries…anyway, there was an argument between Sts. Augustine of Hippo and Jerome that is outlined here:

              https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08341a.htm

              Martin Luther, actually, had no clue that over half of his list of complaints were already under discussion at the Vatican. He also, according to the Vatican transcripts, was not the scholar he was made out to be. He really gave a face to a movement that had been in motion for about 250 years, I’ve picked up over time.

              As for America, no, it would not have taken shape the way it did without the protesting. But, there are other thoughts at the philosophical level about that I won’t share on this forum. I just do the apologetics for better understanding.

              Liked by 1 person

      2. Oh & I don’t prefer Bibles that are “paraphrases” for they handle scripture fairly loosely (the Living Bible & the Message are examples, I believe). Though in looking at a passage comparatively (like the first link I shared above) there are times that even paraphrases can help one grasp some of the meaning that the more traditional translations might have missed.

        My husband sometimes likes a paraphrase & I’ve heard they can be very beneficial for evangelizing “un-churched” groups as their approach is much less formal…

        Liked by 1 person

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