Luna Wolf Pack

Greetings Awesome Q-Treepers!  Wolf Moon has honored me with the ability to contribute here as an author, so here’s my first attempt at a post.  I hope this will be somewhat light-hearted for a bit of relief from all the stresses of the Plannedemic.

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Some time back a fellow Q-Treeper either recommended the author Dan Abnett or the Horus Heresy book series.  Anyway, occasionally I try to read what gets shared in the Q-Tree House…So I picked up Horus Rising: The Seeds of Heresy are Sown, Book One of the series & made my way through the tale.

The Title Character is described as “Horus–First Primarch and Warmaster, Commander-in-Chief of the Luna Wolves”…which of course immediately made me think of our amazing Wolf Pack Leader, Wolf Moon…perhaps this is all just an intriguing coincidence.  Or perhaps this book or series or character holds a special place in Wolfie’s heart…truly only he can say…

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Regardless, it seems that a number of us here in the Q-Tree enjoy referring to culturally recognizable characters or scenes.  Some even enjoy “movie quoting” as a bit of a pass-time, as does my family; it’s a back-up language for us & even comes up when assessing potential dating partners for some of my kids.

Personal sidebar, before my husband & I married we already used movie quotes as a bit of a short-hand communication style.  Years later, when our special needs son, Josiah, who is on the autism spectrum (in addition to having many other medical challenges) was in early childhood he often communicated verbally & the majority of the time he was using some type of movie quoting…We used to just ignore what appeared to be rather meaningless babbling that he kept putting out–we just didn’t understand.

One doctor’s visit, years later, I believe the Lord gave me insight into my son.  Usually he would verbally & physically disrupt any appointment we were having.  He would become especially agitated when we discussed whatever his “problems” were, as they needed to be addressed in those visits.  Anyway that AhHa moment hit & I wondered aloud if his movie-quoting was actually purposeful.  What if he was expressing what he was thinking or feeling but just couldn’t do it directly as Josiah.  Instead he would quote, for instance, Buzz Lightyear, & you had to be up on just what was happening to Buzz when he delivered the quoted line, because what Buzz said or felt was where Josiah was, but couldn’t just say on his own for himself.

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When I threw that concept out in that medical conversation Josiah stopped squirming & stared me dead in the eyes (he had Major eye contact issues by that point) & his countenance said “Finally you get me!”  I still get chills thinking about that time, for it was pretty revolutionary in how we as a family came to view & better understand Josiah.  He wasn’t just babbling randomly at all, he was trying to reach out to us using character voices & situations.  We spent years basically ignoring & marginalizing this special kid because we thought all that verbiage was just random autistic vocalizing but not purposeful.  We have to still be very up on the context of the quoting to “understand” what he is/was trying to convey, but now he is much more able to speak in his own voice as himself.  It’s still a trip to observe people who don’t know him well, nor have our specific entertainment repertoire for context, trying to make sense of the randomness swirling about 🙂  He’s actually become quite legendary for some of his siblings’ social groups in all that glorious quirkiness!!!

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Here’s a bit more info, in case that movie quoting stuff can assist someone’s journey:

My son was diagnosed on the Autism Spectrum by Richard Solomon, MD who was a behavioral pediatrician working at the University of Michigan hospital at that time. I believe he is now on the East Coast somewhere so I’ll see if I can find a link for him. I ran into his sister at U of M (an Ann Arbor librarian reading to children at the hospital) & she said Dr. Solomon had also written a book related to unusual languages of the autistic, in particular “movie quoting” (which is a language spoken fluently in our house–without any of us having read the book). He could be an asset in multiple ways. Here is a site affiliated with him, autism, & w/U of M:
http://www.aacenter.org/

Above quote is from this post: https://specialconnections.wordpress.com/2019/01/05/comfort-in-suffering/

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Anyway, back to the point of this first Q-Tree post.  More on Horus, there was a section near the end of the book referred to as “The Wolf & the Moon” that got me thinking of our Wolf again; the quote below is adapted from pages 406-407 of the paperback version of “Horus Rising”:

“Of all the battles…fought at his commander’s side, that was the fiercest, the saddest, the most vicious…Horus seemed more noble than [he] had ever known…He would remember Horus, Warmaster, in that narrow firelit street, defining the honour and unyielding courage of the Imperium of Man…Horus made his most absolute statement of devotion to the Throne.  And to his father.

The enemy warriors…choked the street, driving the Warmaster and his few remaining bodyguards into a tight ring.  A last stand.

It was oddly as he had imagined it, that night in the garden, making his oath.  Some great, last stand against an unknown foe, fighting at Horus’s side…He did not falter.  Through the smoke above, [he] glimpsed a moon, a small moon glowing in the corner of the alien sky….’Lupercal’ [he] screamed”!

When typing up that quote I noticed some biblical allusions, at least to me, having a Biblical Christian World View.  Devotion to the Throne (of God?) to his Father (God?) night in the Garden (like Gethsemane) an oath (Father if it be Your Will let this cup pass from me, but nevertheless not my will but Yours be done) battle (the Cross–the very fulcrum of all battles of Light vs darkness) crying out (“My God, My God, why have you forsaken me”–bringing to mind Psalm 22 describing the events then unfolding, or “It is Finished!”)…anyway I know that Horus isn’t necessarily a Christ archetype character, nor is Wolf Moon, nor are any of us all.  However, we who are believers are to show forth His Light until He comes, so that’s the lens through which I view certain things…

Regardless, whether or not Wolf Moon was inspired in his name from this source, it seems that the Warmaster spirit of Horus is alive & well in our Luna Wolves Pack & in our precious, priceless leader Wolf Moon!

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So I was hoping to inspire discussion around a tree house style campfire so I’ll share a little more from Horus Rising where I felt that my own spirit was well represented, & perhaps many of you here as well, as adapted from page 68 of Horus Rising…

“…only a weapon which questions its use could be of any value in that role…you need to have concerns…wit, and most certainly you need to have doubts.  Do you know what a naysmith is?…In early Terran history…naysmiths were employed by the ruling classes. Their job was to disagree.  To question everything.  To consider any argument or policy and find fault with it, or articulate the counter position.  They were highly valued.”

My experience with being, by nature, a “naysmith”, in the real world is that it is rarely valued.  I once took a spiritual giftings inventory test & it claimed that my strongest “gift” was that of prophecy, or rather truth telling.  By contrast, my husband’s greatest gift was servanthood, the very area where I scored the lowest.  Believe me, few people, perhaps in particular in “church”, embrace a truth-teller, especially if the “prophet” is female!

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I hear Rush describe himself as never going along with the crowd and being a contrary thinker.  How ever he’s articulated this character of his, I resonate with virtually every word he says.  This just seems to be how I’m wired or designed or created.  I’m often highly analytical but in a way that by nature is looking for the flaws in something, not to shoot it down, but rather to help refine it, to get it Right…

Kind of funny that the word used in Horus Rising is NaySmith.  Being a genealogist, I’m aware of surname patterns, including those based on historical occupations.  The Smith line of names hearkens back to those blacksmithing kind of trades.  Part of Smithing would be heating & pounding metal to shape & purify it.  That is perhaps what a NaySmith does, not with metal but with words & ideas…

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We once watched a documentary on the nearly lost art of ancient Sword Making, to get the kind of sword featured in Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon.  Both my husband & I were struck by the spiritual analogies of the swordsmith to the iron sharpens iron aspect of Christian living.  God is also described as a refiner’s fire in scripture…there are so many good truths around us when we open our eyes, & ears, & hearts to what He might be whispering to our souls in our own personal language of the heart…

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Here are some other characters to whom I personally relate:

  • Pontus Pilate, “What is Truth?”, the easier Q would have been Who is Truth?
  • the one who said “Lord I believe, help thou my unbelief!”
  • Mary Magdalene, I am the least of these yet the Lord loves me & lifted (& continues to lift) me from the mire
  • Mary & Martha & even Lazarus when the Lord raises me yet again to new Life
  • House, his social awkwardness & drive to discover the truth of a situation
  • Frodo, “to bear a ring of power is to be alone”, especially in advocating for Josiah
  • Job, struggling to say with integrity “though He slay me, yet will I trust Him!”
  • Samaritan Woman at the Well
  • Thief on the Cross “Lord remember me when you come into Your Kingdom” & I am mightily moved by Jesus’ reply “Today you will be with me in Paradise”
  • Amelia Peabody Emerson of Elizabeth Peters’ Egyptology tales, always messing with her husband Radcliffe in fun & flirtatiousness
  • Worf & Data on Star Trek, Next Gen, in being out of their comfort zone & getting by
  • John & Jane Smith of Mr. & Mrs. Smith, a movie metaphor for much of marriage
  • Longmire in how he tries to be strong, just/righteous, brave, compassionate, & truth-seeking
  • Bosch in how he is an out of the box thinker & bucking the system
  • Patrick Henry “Give me Liberty or give me death”, aspirationally at least
  • Mel Gibson in The Patriot, when he tries to spare his family the pain & horrors of the battle & when he surrenders himself to being a dead man walking so that he may perhaps slay his enemy
  • Belle in Beauty & the Beast, trying to see beyond the surface to the heart & a passionate reader

Well who inspires you?  Who do you relate to?  What are some of your favorite movie quotes or scenes?  Any of you care to share what inspires either your avatars or your anonymous handles?  How about nicknames you’ve had?

Here are some nicknames I’ve had through the years, stories for later–maybe 🙂 :

  • Killer
  • Paws
  • Tigresse
  • Swo
  • Ancestress
  • Orca
  • Boom Shak-a-laka

Hopefully we’ll be able to play with these concepts without having masks slip that need to be maintained for the sake of online anonymity…God Bless You ALL! 

Oh & thanks for allowing me to contribute to the Q-Tree in this new, adventure-for-me kind of way…

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PS for your listening pleasure, for the “thief” inside us all:

Here are the lyrics:

Third Day Thief

I am a thief, I am a murderer
Walking up this lonely hill
What have I done? No, I don’t remember
No one knows just how I feel
And I know that my time is coming soon
It’s been so long, oh, such a long time
Since lived with peace and rest
Now I am here, my destination
I guess things work for the best
And I know that my time is coming soon
Who is this man? This man beside me
They call the King of the Jews
They don’t believe that He’s the Messiah
But somehow, I know that it’s true
They laugh at Him in mockery
And they beat Him ’til He bleeds
And they nail Him to the rugged cross
They raise Him, yeah, they raise Him up next to me
My time has come and I’m slowly fading
I deserve what I receive
Jesus when You are in Your kingdom
Could You please, please remember me?
And He looks at me still holding on
The tears fall from His eyes
And He says I tell the truth
Today, you will be with Me in paradise
And I know that my time, yes my time is coming soon
And I know that my time, yes my time, is coming soon
And I know Paradise, Paradise is coming soon
Source: LyricFind
Songwriters: Bradley B. C. Avery / David Carr / Johnny Mac Powell / Mark D. Lee / Samuel Tai Anderson
Thief lyrics © Universal Music Publishing Group, Kobalt Music Publishing Ltd.
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I’d love to have this image appear as the banner at the top of this post but don’t know how to make that happen…Blessings to All!

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282 thoughts on “Luna Wolf Pack

    1. I’m hoping that by pressing the Q-Tree post to my main blog it will allow non-authorized people to comment if they choose. I sent the SC link in my tweet out of this post too…

      I have no idea if this is what other authors here do…Please share tips if so inclined 🙂

      Liked by 10 people

              1. It’s based on a conceptual musical group called “Devo” (short for devolution) that had a tagline / lyric “Are we not men? We are Devo!” (thus D-Vo, thus Q-Vo). I then use a similar failed denial of being autists (because we act like autists, despite being boomers), but instead of asserting that we’re “degraded and proud” (“We are devolved”), I’m saying that we may be degraded by others (“Q-tards”) and to others, but we’re proudly Q-ists to ourselves.

                Don’t get too deep into these guys – they’re loaded with cultural Marxism, and are basically a tool of a lot of nasty stuff, but still – interesting to understand.

                Liked by 4 people

              2. I remember Devo from back in the day, though didn’t know the origin of their name.

                Your description is making me think of a teen/young adult book I once read called Dissonance. In it there was the multi-verse & in order to traverse one to another you needed to be able to pluck something like metaphysical musical strings, like a harpist, that only very few gifted people, like the heroine, could do. I loved that story.

                Another multiverse tale involved Troi & Riker from Star Trek Next Gen. Imzadi was one of the books & I forget the other. I think they were written by a husband & wife team. If I recall they met on Betazed when Riker attended a wedding where by tradition everyone was naked. His lustful thoughts after Deanna were read by all the full Betazoids in attendance, including her indomitable mother, Luwuxanna (played by Gene Roddenberry’s wife who’d also played Nurse Christine Chapel in the original & was the computer voice for forever, I forget her real name now. She was hilarious when she had the hots for Picard in a few episodes!)…Fun!

                https://www.startrek.com/sites/default/files/styles/1080×1080/public/images/2019-07/cfd2b32e4caf5678c34b631f56c03686.jpg?itok=MwfXE2yI

                https://www.startrek.com/sites/default/files/styles/content_full/public/images/2019-07/9a1158154dfa42caddbd0694a4e9bdc8.jpg?itok=ms3fcqGN

                She got to go after Picard in one series & Spock in the other…what fun for a versatile actress!

                Here she is, Majel Barrett, with her husband Gene Roddenberry

                http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/familyguy/images/3/34/Majel_and_Gene.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20090719235740

                Hope those images show…

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            1. A rough translation:

              Pence joining Trump at Arizona in the fight to win the election and overthrow the establishment

              A great gift freely given for America

              Q followers on 8chan are “autists” that can figure out ANYTHING

              Yes we see/understand!

              Liked by 4 people

            2. It comes from an episode of Star Trek, The Next Generation.

              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darmok

              When you described your son’s method of communication, that is the basis of communication of the aliens in the story – analogies, idiomatic references, metaphors, allegories – totally indirect. It sounds like gibberish unless you know the references AND the style, then it’s basically “literary code”.

              It’s the way autists, artists and poets talk, too. Or kids who talk in code, like many groups I hung out with did, as a youth. We could have entire conversations in front of my parents and they had no clue what we were talking about.

              The lines from the show have become memes, and people who know them use them like the alien characters IRL. Or you can riff off them – like Picard does in the show, too.

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              1. It also plugs into things like “the good Samaritan” and “30 pieces of silver”. When there is enough cultural connection, there are ways of referencing serious subjects that are opaque to other cultures.

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              2. Yes. It’s pretty amazing how many of our phrases have a biblical origin. Sometimes I’m reading a Bible passage & something jumps out & I’m like oh so That’s where that came from!

                This appears to be a fun source to toodle around in…

                https://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/bible-phrases-sayings.html

                “A sign of the times

                KJV, Matthew 16:3 – And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowering. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?

                A soft answer turns away wrath

                KJV, Proverbs 15:1 – A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger.”

                Liked by 3 people

              3. That’s excellent. Maybe that’s why that is the part of my post that most seem to resonate with…

                My lowbrow background makes me think of the 3 Stooges & pig Latin…

                Here’s a couple other faves

                That one’s in the family quote library…

                We have the collection that these below are pulled from & I love so many of them. Of course Josiah played them So Much that it’s taken a few years to even muster up the desire to see them much now. Still can’t deal with Star Wars for the same reason!

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              4. “We could have entire conversations in front of my parents and they had no clue what we were talking about.”

                My grandfather and his brothers who spoke fluent French used to do this in front of their wives who were all Irish. It drove them nuts.

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              5. My grandparents, my mom’s adoptive parents, spoke Finnish in front of people to have a very public private conversation. Apparently they traveled to Finland a few times & the Finlanders would always laughingly remark on their quaint, old fashioned version of the language. They were both the children of Finnish immigrants in Michigan’s Upper Peninsula so they were speaking a form of Finnish that was perhaps in vogue circa 1900, before they both were born 🙂

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        1. It is…but it’s one specific episode. Out of seven seasons.

          Picard is marooned on a planet with an alien who seems to be babbling incomprehensibly; he’s actually trying to communicate by alluding to incidents in his own folklore. Once Picard figures this out, he’s able to guess what the guy is trying to say.

          I said more about this below.

          Liked by 5 people

            1. And you’ve made my point (that I raised below). You had no idea what we were talking about because you didn’t know the story.

              With your son you had both seen the movies. So you can understand him now that you know what he’s doing.

              Liked by 4 people

              1. We actually try to identify the source of random quotes (amongst all of us, but especially Josiah). Now the “kids” (they’re all young adults) have viewing experiences that my husband & I don’t share, so they still have to translate some of it for us outsiders.

                Josiah has a very interesting speechifying communication style when he gets charged up. He does Winston Churchill, MLK Jr, Wrestling announcers, Peter Jennings in 9-11 coverage, & other stuff. He’s often promoting himself at a fictional event or creating a provocative speech borrowing phrases &/or styling from a mishmash of the above & more.

                He also writes versions of Psalms that truly seem inspired. He has a Major Heart for the Lord & in God’s Kingdom he’s not usually the one in the family with disabilities 🙂

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          1. “Darmok” is the actual name of the episode (and I see Wheatie has already said that; I thought it was just a fan nickname); it’s the second episode of the fifth season, according to wikipoo.

            Liked by 3 people

              1. Oh, and there is one other very, very good episode in that season…Inner Light.

                The bad news is, the first episode is the second half of a two parter (they started doing to-be-continueds at the ends of seasons for some reason).

                Liked by 3 people

          2. Looking “Darmok” up on bing.com there are images of lizard looking characters…figures that would be the pop-culture association to our family’s real world experiences. We’re not from the dark side, I swear, no matter how much Josiah likes to quote the Emperor from Star Wars & how much he’s drawn to powerful orators…
            LOL 🙂

            Liked by 3 people

              1. Thanks…I’ll be trying the free route first, we can access Netflix, Amazon, & even Hulu (daughter’s boyfriend’s account is signed in on our TV) plus there is YouTube. I’m too cheap to go the rental route but once the libraries open up again around here (Michigan Lunatic Lockdown) it might be available through the regional system our local library participates in…

                Liked by 3 people

              2. Didn’t know you could do it for free. So anyhow, second episode, fifth season, if it’s not named “Darmok” it’s the wrong one.

                I’d love to hear about Josiah’s reaction.

                (“This is the only sane thing I’ve ever seen on TV!!!”?)

                Liked by 3 people

              3. You are correct, it’s not really “free” at all is it, except for the YouTube sort of. We’re bumming access to Netflix off of Josiah’s twin Brandon, & my husband & B both pay through the nose for Amazon Prime which includes streaming access. As I said elsewhere our daughter’s boyfriend’s Hulu is signed in on our TV, but you have to watch commercials there which is a bit of a pain…

                I’ll try to reply to you with J’s take if I can remember to do so (brain’s not what it used to be!!!) & if I can find your comment again!!!

                Liked by 1 person

              4. Oh, & library access is paid for with our property tax dollars which we didn’t get discounted for the many years we didn’t have our kids in the local school & had to pay for their Christian education…no vouchers, no rebates, no free lunches!

                & why exactly does the government have the right to confiscate our fully owned mortgage-free (eventually) property if we don’t let the overlords pick our pockets twice a year??? Whatever.

                Liked by 3 people

              5. Yes!!! I was kinda hoping that if Trump really is taking over the Fed & “overturning the money changers’ tables” that he might get us back to before the illegitimate Income Tax fiasco. If the gov’t could tighten its belt & actually work for the good of the nation & her citizens maybe we could go back to funding it with tariffs & legitimate takings of criminals. None of that repossessing a family farm for homeschooling or selling raw milk style gestapo crap though!

                Liked by 3 people

        1. Thank you, that really helped me to understand what so many are referring to! Now I wonder if most are saying They relate to Darmok or my son’s communication challenges remind them of Darmok or both or moar???

          Liked by 2 people

          1. I could be wrong, but I would interpret your reception here as appreciation for your post; sympathy for your challenges (liver transplants are far removed from sprained fingers and slivers!); and understanding regarding communication. I hope you both have fun watching the episode and would love to see your son here.

            Liked by 4 people

            1. Well that is much appreciated & also very interesting. Much of what we discuss here would go a bit over his head & he possibly has the Worst attention span of all the ADHD people in the family aka most of us.

              He is, however, a serious warrior. I try to steer him in his warfare more in the prayerful & spiritual arena because when he gets revved up he can start saying things that might get him in trouble online or if overheard by others who don’t know how to take him with a grain of salt.

              He gets pretty revved up when he hears our news reports in Michigan currently, including my commentary. Also when he hears Rush, Mark Levin, &/or Michael Savage &/or some of their callers he wants to get out there & do something about the tyranny.

              Menagerie, from CTH, read some of his stuff a couple years back, knowing he was on the autism spectrum w/ other challenges, & invited other Treepers to his blog(s) saying something like “rarely have we seen such a spirit” in one so young…

              I personally considered that to be high praise & a ringing endorsement of our decision to “allow” him to begin to develop an increasing online presence. We walk that tightrope that every parent does between protecting & launching our young ones. When special needs are part of the mix it becomes an even more complicated business 🙂

              Here’s his twitter, though I don’t know how frequently he tweets now…

              Funny story, when we were at U of M Hospital one time & he decided he wanted to start doing his own CarePage blog then he “invented” an email for himself during the set up process. He literally thought a good email address for himself would be JosiahCurren@Christ.com but I don’t think that even God will be friending him there LOL…You’ve gotta love his heart & gumption though!

              Liked by 5 people

            2. If you are really interested in his tale he is on Facebook under his name & on these blogs:

              Here’s his most recent post at one blog:

              https://josiahsfreakshow.wordpress.com/2020/04/12/wonderful-news/

              & most recent at his other blog:

              https://josiahthesecretweapon.wordpress.com/2020/01/28/a-psalm-of-josiah-13/

              Here’s a Very Long Post that gives a decent overview about that transplant journey from one of my blogs…there’s A Lot of stuff there…

              https://specialconnections.wordpress.com/2017/07/30/four-years-ago-today-a-transplant-tale/

              This post reveals A Lot about our journey with Josiah, from my perspective, but also shares from many other people’s experiences in the special needs arena…

              https://specialconnections.wordpress.com/2018/09/09/special-needs-parenting-trauma-ptsd/

              So, sorry if I was overstepping here at all. You seemed so interested in Josiah that I wanted to give you some different ways to get to know (about) him better. Blessings!

              Josiah won’t know what hit him when I show him this post, the comments if he’ll hang with them, & that episode of Next Gen. Could be a fun day (after I eventually get some sleep) 🙂 🙂 🙂

              Liked by 2 people

            3. The way things seem to be going now he is spending the bulk of his waking hours this weekend at Rose’s house & boy are they putting him to work!!! It’s working out well for me too, so I can more fully partake of the outpouring of the commentariot on this post & elsewhere in the Q-Tree. Perhaps we’ll end up watching that STNG episode with the rest of the family, after everyone’s been Made to read my post of course! 🙂

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            4. I just got “finished” getting Josiah to this post but he couldn’t hang with it for very long. I ended up reading it to him up until we got to the bloody wolf…Maybe, but probably not, he’ll finish reading the post later. He’s looking through the comments for stuff about himself, so there is that 🙂 Sometimes that’s as good as it gets around here, & we have to be content with what we can get…Blessings!

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      1. “Darmok” is an episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation.

        Actually, it’s more than “an episode”, it’s easily one of the best episodes of the entire series. Incredible acting, screenwriting, makeup, effects . . . but it’s the richness of the story that really makes it stand out.

        Even if you aren’t a Star Trek fan, it’s one you must see. Ranks up there with some of the Twilight Zone episodes that are classics.

        https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Darmok_(episode)

        https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Tamarian_language

        https://www.startrek.com/article/one-trek-mind-deciphering-darmok

        Liked by 3 people

        1. Thank you!!! I’ll have to dig into what all you’ve shared here. I really love Star Trek, at least original & Next Gen. Ironically I’ve watched the entirety of Enterprise & Voyager (wasn’t 7 of 9’s husband the one that team Obama thrust off the stage through illegal movers to ensure aka BHO a victory in the IL State House? jump-starting his path of political destruction) but not ever really Deep State 9…There’s still so much to take in.

          Liked by 3 people

          1. Jack Ryan was Jeri Ryan’s 1st spouse. He opposed Zippy in the 2004 US Senate race after winning his primary. After a scoundrel California judge released SEALED custody documents containing salacious details, Ryan withdrew his candidacy…
            The fix was in for Zippy so it wasn’t likely that Ryan could have won. After all, the media was up to its usual tricks. (The Chi Tribune & ABC tv affiliate were plaintiffs in suit to get divorce & custody documents released…etc)

            Liked by 2 people

          1. 🙂 goes down like cod liver oil around here bub (riffing on George Bailey’s “comes in pretty handy down here Bub” line in It’s a Wonderful Life)…demonstrating that family trait loosely! 🙂

            Liked by 1 person

  1. The thing about Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra…

    It’s certainly okay to allude to a story, that both parties know, as a method of communication. It works, provided you both have that shared bit of context.

    But how on earth would they tell the story to each other in the first place? How do they tell their young ones the story for the first time, without telling it “straight”?

    That’s why I can’t buy the notion of a culture that ONLY talks by alluding to stories.

    Valerie, you were lucky you could understand your son’s allusions, because you had a shared context. If you hadn’t, you’d still be wondering what was going on.

    Liked by 7 people

    1. A very nice observation that jabs the political linguists. There’s a youtube video where Chomsky gets gutted by someone in the audience on a similar point (unfortunately a more than 5 minute search).

      Liked by 5 people

    2. Chinese writing slams into an analogous limitation. How do you “spell out” a new proper name, especially a foreign one? At some point they have to resort to a subset of their script that actually is phonetic.

      You can’t have a purely ideographic writing system and you can’t have a language that communicates SOLELY by allusions.

      Liked by 3 people

      1. You’re making me think of groups like Wycliffe Bible Translators that go into remote areas & learn the oral language of the people, create a written version of the language, & then translate the Bible into that “native tongue” as best as they can. Idiomatic expressions & cultural meanings are likely much diminished or lost entirely.

        I had an Old Testament Professor in Grad School (on the NIV translation committee) who told us about the book of Jeremiah, I think. God said to the prophet “what do you see?” & then the words the prophet spoke out sounded similar to the meaning that God wanted to convey.

        The literal translation of those words of God & of the prophet into English made that discussion rather incongruous, but Hebrew speakers would probably get it right away…

        No wonder God included that phrase “now we see through a glass darkly, then we will see face to face. Now we know in part, then we will know in full even as we are fully known” or close to that.

        That Tower of Babel thing means we are Never going to fully Get what any other person on the planet it Actually saying, let alone Fully comprehend God or His Word!

        My husband used to date a Vietnamese girl & he mentioned the word “ma” that had like 7 different meanings based on pronunciations & inflections. I’ve heard that about other Oriental languages too…

        In translating the Hebrew scriptures my understanding is that there are no vowels & maybe places where there are no breaks. Vowel sounds are indicated by little marks, jots or tittles, I believe they are called.

        The existence of virtually unchanged scriptural language transcription throughout the ages, especially given hand copying by scribes, is part of the evidence of the miraculous preservation of God’s word for all people for all time…Someone wrote a book “proving” the miraculous existence & truth of the Bible compared to other ancient texts that are taken as “gospel” even though there are just sometimes a handful of versions…

        I hope that last image, in particular, shows… 🙂

        Liked by 4 people

        1. My husband used to date a Vietnamese girl & he mentioned the word “ma” that had like 7 different meanings based on pronunciations & inflections. I’ve heard that about other Oriental languages too…

          “ma” in Chinese is the prototypical example; the four tones (flat, rising, falling, rising and falling) change ma into four completely distinct meanings and people explaining it to English speakers will use “ma” as an example.

          THat’s Mandarin…other languages of China have more than four tones. (Cantonese isn’t a “dialect of Chinese,” it’s a separate language; they can’t understand each other.)

          Liked by 3 people

          1. Fascinating. Are you some type of linguist or just have ever expanding curiosity in numerous arenas? I’m back to wishing the Neo/Trinity upload capability for ease of processing all the great info out there!

            Liked by 2 people

          2. Vietnamese, and its relatives, have even more tones than the southern Chinese languages.

            They have more than any known language not in their family, and some linguists have hypothesized that tonality in Chinese is an areal feature. In other words, Chinese has tones because China is in a nearby area of the world to Vietnam.

            As you move in China away from Vietnam, the Chinese languages found there have fewer tones.

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            1. I actually heard the opposite hypothesis once; that those southern Asian languages became “Chineseified,” basically. (But that may be more a matter of word structure and grammar, and not the tones–my recollection is vague. Certainly what you say makes sense with respect to number of tones.)

              Liked by 2 people

              1. A Western analogy would be the presence in Spanish of the sound represented by the letter ‘rr’ (“erre”), not found in any other Indo-European language.

                The Moorish conquest confined Late Latin speakers to the rugged mountains of the northwest of the peninsula, where they came into closer contact with their fellow Christians, the Basques. And Basque is a non-IE language that does have this sound.

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              2. Basque is utterly unrelated to any other known, living language. There are traces of close relatives in what is now France–long since overrun by the Celts, Romans, and Franks.

                Languages that are that “different” are generally a cast-iron bitch to learn. (Of course if you were raised there you know it and it’s easy.)

                There are some very tentative hypotheses of it being perhaps related to some languages in the Caucasus and other isolated groups in Siberia, but nothing has really come of this. The idea being that there was, once, over ten thousand years ago an older swatch of families across Eurasia that got over run by Uralic, Altaic, and Indo-European. These languages tend to hang on in inaccessible areas (mountains and swamps).

                In folklore some claimed the Devil couldn’t get any headway there because he couldn’t figure out the language.

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              3. Fascinating! Thanks for that glimpse.

                If I ever really get the genealogy underway & can make the jump across the pond better, my mom’s birth family roots hail from the Black Forest region of Baden in Germany. I understand that is near the borders of both France & Switzerland so there are likely many interesting cultural overlaps & upheavals given wars, conquerors, & who knows what else…Future Fun!

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              4. I have a friend who spent a few years in Japan. She said there was still significant animosity between Japan & China, partly stemming from WWII atrocities. Also she said that both nations derived from the same people group but neither nation would ever want to admit that.

                How much of the “history” of those places & regions is highly distorted because of the CCP (at least in part)?

                I saw one of those genealogy shows, like Finding Your Roots, that featured Ming Tsai, a chef featured on PBS’s show Simply Ming. His family background was from China. It turned out that his ancestors were able to be identified back for many hundreds of years because there was an intact “stellae” (I think, like a stone monument with ancestry carved into it). Most of these items had been destroyed during the “Cultural Revolution” when it became unfashionable/deadly to try to identify with & take pride in your ancestry. His family were from the more educated classes & got out before they were murdered, like had happened to so many of their colleagues. It’s like the CCP tried to destroy everyone’s identity, history, & even national pride in addition to its artists & intelligentsia. Sickening & evil!

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              5. The spoken Japanese language is very different from Chinese (though they borrowed and adapted the Chinese writing system–BTW it’s probably the most complex in the world as it is a mix of three distinct systems, plus the occasional Romaji (Roman letters).

                It’s hard to relate Japanese to any other language, and Korean is similarly difficult to relate.

                That’s language, genetics–actual physical descent–is another matter and one I won’t opine on.

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              6. I only brought up the genetics side because it could theoretically relate to the movements of people groups which could correspond to some degree with language development…

                Given numerous people are descended from Genghis Khan, for instance, it’s likely that genetics is not at all just reflective of voluntary coupling & that could mean bastard children of other people groups (like say Vikings) being raised in the mother’s clan…

                It was a thought, but perhaps too convoluted to develop much definitive info, just perhaps highly speculative correlations…

                Your info on Japan, China, & Korea is interesting too…

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            2. Very interesting! Language is truly a living & breathing thing. I once traveled by car with an old boyfriend from the Carolinas to Oklahoma, where he’d grown up & I’d lived for a number of years. We made a pit stop & interacted with a man there & I literally had to translate what the man had said to my boyfriend because the Southern dialect was so strong. Ironically he’d spent way more time in the South(west) than had I but he missed like half of what that man was saying…

              I really enjoy looking for those telltale linguistic signals in people’s speech that May reveal their origins a bit. (For instance I hear what sounds like NJ a bit in Mitch Album’s speech patterns) I’ve read that one’s accent is set around age 12, perhaps connected to puberty?, so if an English speaker has a heavy foreign accent they likely learned English after age 12 or learned it in an environment where the speech is heavily accented.

              I was on a missions trip to Liberia in West Africa & English was spoken there, along with a number of tribal dialects. Their accent was very heavy & difficult for the mid Westerners on that trip to make sense of…

              Liked by 1 person

      2. My understanding is that most Chinese characters have some phonetic connection, though I don’t know how the system works.

        Same with ancient Egyptian hieroglyphics.

        There are no human writing systems that are not at least largely phonetic, though of course some come a lot closer to being straightforward 1-to-1 alphabetic than others.

        I once saw a map of the Old World in a linguistics book that showed samples of the script of each of the major writing systems used in the world, together with where they were found. They all are derived ultimately from Sumerian cuneiform. And, on this wonderful map, anyone could observe the visual similarities between neighboring scripts, as the principle of written communication started in Sumer and marched outward from there in all directions.

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        1. Not all of them are related, the East Asian scripts (including Chinese) form their own family. Still, the sheer number of them that ARE related is remarkable. All of the independent scripts (aztec, mayan, Chinese) are some sort of mixture.

          And yes Chinese has a notable phonetic component, some simple sounds, and some cases where the entire pictograph means a word, all right, BUT it can be used to represent the sound of a word in a different word, too, like a rebus.

          For the reasons I gave above, a phonetic component is impossible to do away with.

          I forget whether the script makes distinctions between the same sound(s) spoken with different tones (and therfore meaning two different things).

          A lot of scripts are syllabic rather than phonic, with a symbol standing for “ba” rather than a symbol for “b” and one for “a.” (generally such languages only have a few dozen possible syllables; it wouldn’t work well for English). And there are abjads, scripts that don’t use vowels at all.

          Liked by 2 people

          1. If you could see this map, you might change your mind about Chinese being entirely independent.

            There is the separate issue of whether the Mayan system was developed after contact with Phoenician culture. (If the Mayans didn’t in fact have contact with the Phoenicians, then there is a puzzle regarding how they got sufficiently precise astronomical data to construct the Long Count calendar.)

            Hindi and, perhaps even more so, Sanscrit, can represent a tremendous number of syllables in Devanagari, which is syllable-based, supplemented with accent marks that fall into several different classes.

            Farsi and Urdu are normally written in the Nasta’liq abjad, which is based on Nasq, the abjad that is commonly used for Arabic.

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            1. If the Mayans didn’t in fact have contact with the Phoenicians, then there is a puzzle regarding how they got sufficiently precise astronomical data to construct the Long Count calendar.

              Presumably the same way the old world figured it out.

              It’s not like knowledge can never be discovered independently.

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              1. The numbers can’t be derived naked eye observations in fewer than thousands of years. So either they had access to Babylonian results via the Phoenicians, Greeks, Chinese, etc., or they had help from their friend ET, or they used telescopes, or they were building pyramids and recording things in writing millenia earlier than our specialists in Meso-America say.

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              2. Well, there’s one problem with all of this.

                The long count calendar doesn’t actually align with astronomy at all, so you are proceeding from a false premise.

                It goes through cycles of 20, 360, 7200, and 144,000 days, doesn’t do any sort of intercalation at all. It’s simply a base-20 count of days. (With the exception of the second place which only goes to 18.)

                The Maya did have an independent 365 day calendar, and they were aware that it didn’t quite match the ~365.2425 day tropical year (a fact which would become apparent in a couple of decades at most), but they didn’t try to correct for it. Hardly had the precision you seem to think they had.

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              3. “It’s not like knowledge can never be discovered independently.” & whoever runs to the patent office first, or has the best PR campaign, gets credited, even if their version was later, or lesser, than another’s, perhaps…

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              4. Yeah, that’s just the way it works.,

                Of course, you don’t patent knowledge, but rather applications…but if you discover something significant AND PUBLISH FIRST, you get the credit for the discovery. “So and so discovered uranium” for instance.

                There are still arguments over whether Newton or Leibniz invented/discovered calculus, as both were working on it at the same time. Newton is the winner in most people’s eyes. Though in general, the notation used today is the Leibniz one; you get exposed to both in calculus class.

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              5. Well calculus was where I finally hit a wall in the math arena…so I don’t remember anything of Newton or Leibniz. I’ve always meant to find one of those “Calculus for Dummies” (sounds like an oxymoron) & see if I can finally “get” it.

                I’ve always hated straight up memorization. In most areas I was very much of a conceptual learner. If I knew the concept then I could reproduce the necessary equation (& would actually understand what I was doing)…

                When I got to Calculus I never did really grasp the concept. I was required 2 semesters of Cal for my college major. The first one I got a B that was almost an A, but that was probably because the bulk of what we learned riffed on things we already knew.

                The second semester I got a B that was almost a C…Regardless I was also required to take Physics for my major & in my major I arrogantly decided to take Calc-based physics instead of the general physics that I could have still chosen…

                I really was lost & was at a mental block when I couldn’t get the “concept” & I guess I stubbornly refused to just memorize crap so I could perform adequately on the test.

                I ended up Failing physics, something that had never happened to me in my life. Sorry to say but I did not know how to fail (I still don’t really know how to fail even though I’ve got a bit more experience in that uncomfortable arena)…

                Well needing to get back on that horse that bucked me off I took calc based physics again & failed it a second time! I then took general physics and got a weak C & was completely demoralized…

                I was a poor student, as in I did not (& still don’t) have good study habits nor organization nor even motivational skills in so many ways. Up to my Sophmore year of college I’d always gotten by just by being “smart”, understanding concepts, & having a very good associative memory (can do way better on multiple choice vs fill in the blank type tests)…

                That whole failing & then Barely passing took much of the wind out of my sails & burned up a lot of credit hours that might have otherwise have been able to have been used for outlet classes…

                That likely lead to me only half-heartedly pursuing the med school arena. I took the MCAT & did OK but never applied anywhere. I ended up planning to return to my undergrad school, I still lived in that town, for a year & get a second Bachelor’s in Psychology…Instead, I joined the inaugural Christian Counseling master’s program in the seminary for that 2 year degree…

                Well that was way too much info & I’m NOT going to re-read it & “psych” myself out…it is what it is, or was, & it’s all just history now…

                Sorry for perhaps overwhelming you, or anyone else who’s reading along, with all that verbal diarrhea…Blessings & thanks for letting me just do the stream of consciousness there…

                Calculus, why’d it have to be Calculus (think Indiana Jones for the adapted movie quote line) 🙂

                Liked by 1 person

            2. …and Turkish was, too, before Ataturk.

              According to my source: “The theory that writing was invented only once and then borrowed by later groups is called monogenesis. Although this idea remains popular, scientific comparison clearly shows that it can’t be true.” [It then goes on to cite Mayan.]

              If only Old-World systems are connected then the next question is whether Egyptian or Sumerian script is the original–both date back to 3100 BC

              One can analyze clearly borrowed scripts and see certain hallmarks, shared features. But Egyptian and Sumerian do not share any features; they were independently invented. Of course the cuneiform family “tree” died out.

              Chinese also has no shared characteristics with these scripts, neither does Crete or Mesoamerica.

              We can’t absolutely rule it out, but there appear to have been five independent inventions of writing based on a lack of shared characteristics in the oldest samples of each.

              Chinese writing dates back to about 1400BC, and seems to share no characteristics with other systems.

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              1. Sumerian is non-Semitic, non-IE, and unclassified. My personal, amateur guess is that it is Dravidic, or the only known example of an otherwise unknown branch that is related to Dravidic in the same way that Finno-Ugric is related to Altaic, (e.g. Finnish, Estonian, Hungarian to Turkish, Kazakh, Mongolian, etc.) or that Hamitic is related to Semitic. (e.g. Kabyle to Hebrew, Amharic, Arabic, etc.)

                Anyway, Sumer precedes the Babylonians, and the other Semitic civilizations. It has been considered the 1st river valley civilization, though of course, new discoveries are possible.

                It goes back to about 5,000 BC, when, on the vernal equinox, the sun rose in Gemini. Hence, twins were considered either sacred or accursed throughout mythologies around the world, and believed to have the power to control the weather. (In a river valley civilization, knowledge and/or control of the weather is key. If you don’t plant the crops at the right time, or open the flood gates at the right time, everyone starves.)

                Later, the sun rose in Taurus on the equinox, leading to the study of the precession of the equinoxes, and discovery of the Great Year. And many civilizations had religions based on bull-worship. Such as the Mycenean you mentioned recently.

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              2. Sumerian is non-Semitic, non-IE, and unclassified. My personal, amateur guess is that it is Dravidic,

                Yep. And that’s my guess too, and it’s also the guess of a lot of linguists, but it’s REALLY hard to see the relationship.

                I brought it up because it appears to be an independent invention of writing. The system was borrowed by all of the subsequent Mesopotamian civilizations, which were either Semitic languages (part of Afro-Asiatic) or Indo European languages (Persia, Anatolia including the Hittites).

                or the only known example of an otherwise unknown branch that is related to Dravidic in the same way that Finno-Ugric is related to Altaic, (e.g. Finnish, Estonian, Hungarian to Turkish, Kazakh, Mongolian, etc.)

                Most linguists don’t connect Uralic and Altaic any longer. That’s one of those controversies that won’t quite go away, but in the main they’re considered two separate groups now.

                Of course NOW there is new theory, still unaccepted by most, that those two groups, plus others, including Indo-European and Dravidian, are all part of a superfamily–they can see several very suggestive similarities in things that shouldn’t change much over time and would be unlikely coincidences, but can’t go so far as to reconstruct the parent language (which would really nail it down as “solid”).

                or that Hamitic is related to Semitic. (e.g. Kabyle to Hebrew, Amharic, Arabic, etc.)

                They don’t use the term “Hamitic” any more, and haven’t for quite some time (decades). (Apparently it’s considered vaguely racist.) Semitic is now understood to be one of six main branches of something called “Afro-Asiatic.” (The others being Egyptian–i.e., Ancient Egyptian and relatives including today’s descendant Coptic–Berber, Chadic, Cushitic, and Omotic). [That last sentence sure lit up the spell-check, red underlines all over the place. 🙂 ]

                Other information you gave is interesting!

                The Semitic languages have a written record going back into times when most of my ancestors were still speaking something quite like Proto-Indo-European–which unfortunately was never written down. One would think with all the attention we’ve given it (since almost everything in Europe derives from it, with the exceptions you’ve noted here and elsewhere–oh, and plus Saami and a bunch of Uralic languages spoken, oddly enough, near the Urals), we’d know for sure where PIE was spoken, but we don’t. The favored hypothesis is it came out of what is now Ukraine, but genetic studies and some linguistic evidence suggests eastern anatolia/Northern Iraq. It’s enough of a muddle that I think perhaps the Anatolian genesis might actually be of a parent grouping, and then PIE came out of Ukraine, but that’s PURELY my speculation; which I’d love to bounce off a real linguist and see if it starts a new thought process that will lead to reconciling all the data.

                Liked by 1 person

              3. This makes me wonder if anyone has done mapping overlays between language movements & DNA. As a family historian I am somewhat familiar with using DNA for family history research. Some companies give you a regional ancestral map with percentages to tease what one’s DNA results “mean”…

                Linking DNA & language groups could provide some fascinating material to play with, albeit still all likely highly speculatively…

                https://genetics.thetech.org/ask-a-geneticist/same-parents-different-ancestry

                I was looking for an Ancestry.com article about 4 siblings & the wildly divergent testing results they’d had, but the above article tackles the topic well with easy to understand imagery…

                I wrote the above before seeing where you mentioned “genetic studies”…it’s funny, if it’s this hard to nail down the genesis 🙂 of modern human languages, how much harder must it be to program Star Trek’s Universal Translator! 🙂

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              4. This makes me wonder if anyone has done mapping overlays between language movements & DNA.

                They absolutely have! Now I have to step off into controversy. There are a small contingent of linguists who think they can relate EVERY extant language to every other one. They haven’t just connected Indo European with some of its neighbors, they go all the way back to Proto World.

                Many other linguists just laugh this off and in some cases they have good arguments…but when you put their family tree next to one put together on the basis of DNA by Sforza, the parallels are remarkable.

                More conventionally, of course, they can detect ancient movements of peoples. In fact there’s clearly a movement of people out of Anatolia a few millennia ago, apparently these were the first people to grow food crops in Europe. And that’s one of the two origin theories for Indo European.

                Fascinating stuff!

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              5. This is very interesting & I’m patting myself on the back for a decent intuitive leap with a stuck landing 🙂 But after all in the Myers-Briggs arena I was a Major NP w/ almost perfectly balanced E/I & F/T…well that was true like 30 years ago & the old grey mare really ain’t what she used to be 🙂

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              6. “Hamitic is related to Semitic” Ham, Shem, & Japeth being the sons of Noah, per the Bible…

                I’ve wondered why Finns have been described as Mongolian on some Censuses. I’ve also wondered why Arnold Schwarzenegger looks Oriental in the underwater scene avoiding an explosion in True Lies…

                Is Sumer from Mesopotamia, the “Cradle of Civilization” in the vicinity of where the Garden of Eden, bordered by the Tigris, Euphrates & 2 other rivers was?

                Genesis 2 New International Version (NIV)
                10 A river watering the garden flowed from Eden; from there it was separated into four headwaters. 11 The name of the first is the Pishon; it winds through the entire land of Havilah, where there is gold. 12 (The gold of that land is good; aromatic resin[d] and onyx are also there.) 13 The name of the second river is the Gihon; it winds through the entire land of Cush.[e] 14 The name of the third river is the Tigris; it runs along the east side of Ashur. And the fourth river is the Euphrates.
                Footnotes:
                d. Genesis 2:12 Or good; pearls
                e. Genesis 2:13 Possibly southeast Mesopotamia
                New International Version (NIV)
                Holy Bible, New International Version®, NIV® Copyright ©1973, 1978, 1984, 2011 by Biblica, Inc.® Used by permission. All rights reserved worldwide.
                https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+2&version=NIV

                Genesis Chapter 10 recounts the 3 sons of Noah, Shem, Ham, & Japeth in their clans, languages, territories, & nations. Then the beginning of Genesis Chapter 11 discusses the Tower of Babel. This event seems to have preceded the “languages, nations, & territories” aspect of chapter 10. Though long I’ll copy chapter 10 here for ease of access in this discussion.

                Genesis 10
                Genesis 9Genesis 11

                Genesis 10 New International Version (NIV)
                The Table of Nations
                10 This is the account of Shem, Ham and Japheth, Noah’s sons, who themselves had sons after the flood.

                The Japhethites
                2 The sons[a] of Japheth:

                Gomer, Magog, Madai, Javan, Tubal, Meshek and Tiras.

                3 The sons of Gomer:

                Ashkenaz, Riphath and Togarmah.

                4 The sons of Javan:

                Elishah, Tarshish, the Kittites and the Rodanites.[b] 5 (From these the maritime peoples spread out into their territories by their clans within their nations, each with its own language.)

                The Hamites
                6 The sons of Ham:

                Cush, Egypt, Put and Canaan.

                7 The sons of Cush:

                Seba, Havilah, Sabtah, Raamah and Sabteka.

                The sons of Raamah:

                Sheba and Dedan.

                8 Cush was the father[c] of Nimrod, who became a mighty warrior on the earth. 9 He was a mighty hunter before the Lord; that is why it is said, “Like Nimrod, a mighty hunter before the Lord.” 10 The first centers of his kingdom were Babylon, Uruk, Akkad and Kalneh, in[d] Shinar.[e] 11 From that land he went to Assyria, where he built Nineveh, Rehoboth Ir,[f] Calah 12 and Resen, which is between Nineveh and Calah—which is the great city.

                13 Egypt was the father of

                the Ludites, Anamites, Lehabites, Naphtuhites, 14 Pathrusites, Kasluhites (from whom the Philistines came) and Caphtorites.

                15 Canaan was the father of

                Sidon his firstborn,[g] and of the Hittites, 16 Jebusites, Amorites, Girgashites, 17 Hivites, Arkites, Sinites, 18 Arvadites, Zemarites and Hamathites.

                Later the Canaanite clans scattered 19 and the borders of Canaan reached from Sidon toward Gerar as far as Gaza, and then toward Sodom, Gomorrah, Admah and Zeboyim, as far as Lasha.

                20 These are the sons of Ham by their clans and languages, in their territories and nations.

                The Semites
                21 Sons were also born to Shem, whose older brother was[h] Japheth; Shem was the ancestor of all the sons of Eber.

                22 The sons of Shem:

                Elam, Ashur, Arphaxad, Lud and Aram.

                23 The sons of Aram:

                Uz, Hul, Gether and Meshek.[i]

                24 Arphaxad was the father of[j] Shelah,

                and Shelah the father of Eber.

                25 Two sons were born to Eber:

                One was named Peleg,[k] because in his time the earth was divided; his brother was named Joktan.

                26 Joktan was the father of

                Almodad, Sheleph, Hazarmaveth, Jerah, 27 Hadoram, Uzal, Diklah, 28 Obal, Abimael, Sheba, 29 Ophir, Havilah and Jobab. All these were sons of Joktan.

                30 The region where they lived stretched from Mesha toward Sephar, in the eastern hill country.

                31 These are the sons of Shem by their clans and languages, in their territories and nations.

                32 These are the clans of Noah’s sons, according to their lines of descent, within their nations. From these the nations spread out over the earth after the flood.

                Footnotes:
                a. Genesis 10:2 Sons may mean descendants or successors or nations; also in verses 3, 4, 6, 7, 20-23, 29 and 31.
                b. Genesis 10:4 Some manuscripts of the Masoretic Text and Samaritan Pentateuch (see also Septuagint and 1 Chron. 1:7); most manuscripts of the Masoretic Text Dodanites
                c. Genesis 10:8 Father may mean ancestor or predecessor or founder; also in verses 13, 15, 24 and 26.
                d. Genesis 10:10 Or Uruk and Akkad—all of them in
                e. Genesis 10:10 That is, Babylonia
                f. Genesis 10:11 Or Nineveh with its city squares
                g. Genesis 10:15 Or of the Sidonians, the foremost
                h. Genesis 10:21 Or Shem, the older brother of
                i. Genesis 10:23 See Septuagint and 1 Chron. 1:17; Hebrew Mash.
                j. Genesis 10:24 Hebrew; Septuagint father of Cainan, and Cainan was the father of
                k. Genesis 10:25 Peleg means division.
                New International Version (NIV)
                Holy Bible, New International Version®, NIV® Copyright ©1973, 1978, 1984, 2011 by Biblica, Inc.® Used by permission. All rights reserved worldwide.
                https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+10&version=NIV

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              7. “It goes back to about 5,000 BC” this date is interesting because some extremely literal creationists put the Big Bang creation of the heavens & the earth, as recounted in scripture, at 4004 BC. I believe they use the biblical genealogies & count backward, assuming that every “begat” was a literal father to son relationship, even though the word Could mean “became the ancestor of” so that a genealogical recounting of ancestry could theoretically skip a few generations & focus on ancestors of renown & perhaps conveniently leave off ancestors of infamy.

                I’m not putting forth an opinion on the age of the earth or that 4004 BC date just saying that it’s interesting that it is so close to what you say “it goes back to” around 5000 BC…it can make one wonder!

                I don’t have the astrological understanding you are alluding to above. Is the twins thing even remotely connected to the Romulus & Rhemus tales related to Rome’s origins.

                For the Bull worship, would this have been across cultures? Who decided that those constellations meant “twins” & a “bull”…Did other signs of the Zodiac become worshiped based on equinox &/or solstice astronomical phenomena?

                Is the goat head often associated with Satanism also associated with Aries?

                Job, believed to be the oldest book in the Bible describes several heavenly features:

                Job 38:31-33 New International Version (NIV)
                31 “Can you bind the chains[a] of the Pleiades?
                Can you loosen Orion’s belt?
                32 Can you bring forth the constellations in their seasons[b]
                or lead out the Bear[c] with its cubs?
                33 Do you know the laws of the heavens?
                Can you set up God’s[d] dominion over the earth?

                Footnotes:
                a. Job 38:31 Septuagint; Hebrew beauty
                b. Job 38:32 Or the morning star in its season
                c. Job 38:32 Or out Leo
                d. Job 38:33 Or their
                New International Version (NIV)
                Holy Bible, New International Version®, NIV® Copyright ©1973, 1978, 1984, 2011 by Biblica, Inc.® Used by permission. All rights reserved worldwide.

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              8. This entire Preface to the NIV Study Bible–the one I picked up to look up a passage to share with you & then “found” this extra material in my husband’s Bible–may be of great interest to you in that you seem to have keen insight into ancient languages…

                http://www.bible-researcher.com/niv-preface.html

                Here is a pertinent part of that preface:

                “For the Old Testament the standard Hebrew text, the Masoretic Text as published in the latest editions of Biblia Hebraica, was used throughout. The Dead Sea Scrolls contain material bearing on an earlier stage of the Hebrew Text. They were consulted, as were the Samarian Pentateuch and the ancient scribal traditions relating to textual changes. Sometimes a variant Hebrew reading in the margin of the Masoretic text was followed instead of the text itself. Such instances, being variants within the Masoretic tradition, are not specified by footnotes. In rare cases, words in the consonantal text were divided differently from the way they appear in the Masoretic text. Footnotes indicate this. The translators also consulted the more important early versions—the Septuagint; Aquila, Symmachus and Theodotion; the Vulgate; the Syriac Peshitta; the Targums; and for the Psalms the Juxta Hebraica of Jerome. Readings from these versions were occasionally followed where the Masoretic Text seemed doubtful and where accepted principles of textual criticism showed that one or more of these textual witnesses appeared to provide the correct reading. Such instances are footnoted. Sometimes vowel letters and vowel signs did not, in the judgment of the translators, represent the correct vowels for the original consonantal text. Accordingly some words were read with a different set of vowels. These instances are usually not indicated by footnotes.

                The Greek text used in translating the New Testament was an eclectic one. No other piece of ancient literature has such an abundance of manuscript witnesses as does the New Testament. Where existing manuscripts differ, the translators made their choice of readings according to accepted principles of New Testament textual criticism. Footnotes call attention to places where there was uncertainty about what the original text was. The best current printed texts of the Greek New Testament were used.

                There is a sense in which the work of translation is never wholly finished. This applies to all great literature and uniquely so to the Bible. In 1973 the New Testament in the New International Version was published. Since then, suggestions for corrections and revisions have been received from various sources. The Committee on Bible Translation carefully considered the suggestions and adopted a number of them. These were incorporated in the first printing of the entire Bible in 1978. Additional revisions were made by the Committee on Bible Translation in 1983 and appear in printings after that date.

                As in other ancient documents, the precise meaning of the biblical texts is sometimes uncertain. This is more often the case with the Hebrew and Aramaic texts than with the Greek texts. Although archaeological and linguistic discoveries in this century aid in understanding difficult passages, some uncertainties remain. The more significant of these have been called to the reader’s attention in the footnotes.

                In regard to the divine name YHWH, commonly referred to as the Tetragrammaton, the translators adopted the device used in most English versions of rendering that name as “Lord” in capital letters to distinguish it from Adonai, another Hebrew word rendered “Lord,” for which small letters are used. Wherever the two names stand together in the Old Testament as a compound name of God, they are rendered “Sovereign Lord.”

                Because for most readers today the phrase “the Lord of hosts” and “God of hosts” have little meaning, this version renders them “the Lord Almighty” and “God Almighty.” These renderings convey the sense of the Hebrew, namely, “he who is sovereign over all the ‘hosts’ (powers) in heaven and on earth, especially over the ‘hosts’ (armies) of Israel.” For readers unacquainted with Hebrew this does not make clear the distinction between Sabaoth (“hosts” of “Almighty”) and Shaddai (which can also be translated “Almighty”), but the latter occurs infrequently and is always footnoted. When Adonai and YHWH Sabaoth occur together, they are rendered “the Lord, the Lord Almighty.”

                As for other proper nouns, the familiar spellings of the King James Version are generally retained. Names traditionally spelled with “ch,” except where it is final, are usually spelled in this translation with “k” or “c,” since the biblical languages do not have the sound that “ch” frequently indicates in English—for example, in chant. For well known names such as Zechariah, however, the traditional spelling has been retained. Variation in the spelling of names in the original languages has usually not been indicated. Where a person or place has two or more different names in the Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek text, the more familiar one has generally been used, with footnotes where needed.

                To achieve clarity the translators sometimes supplied words not in the original texts but required by the context. If there was uncertainty about such material, it is enclosed in brackets. Also for the sake of clarity or style, nouns, including some proper nouns, are sometimes substituted for pronouns, and vice-versa. And though the Hebrew writers often shifted back and forth between first, second and third personal pronouns without change of antecedent, this translation often makes them uniform, in accordance with English style and without the use of footnotes.”

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              9. You may find this very enlightening, or redundant to your current knowledge 🙂

                Click to access CulturalBackground.pdf

                In particular I would like to draw your attention to pages xxiv (or 23 of 229 in the pdf) through xxvi (or 25 of 229 of the pdf). This is an illustrated rendering of the “Ancient Texts Relating to the Old Testament”, that also appears in my husband’s Bible, though sans illustrations.

                Perhaps these slide images of the same material will show here as well…

                These are from this site, FYI

                https://cutpaste.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341c40b353ef01bb0840dd75970d-pi

                Blessings & thank you so much for what you have shared here!

                Liked by 1 person

              10. The book I was reading didn’t actually go on to say, but digging around in the rest of it:
                Egyptian, Sumerian/Cuneiform, Mayan, Chinese and Minoan are listed…it also said “at least” and I’m surprised that the indus valley script isn’t listed here. I’ll have to look further, so please take this answer as provisional.

                OKAY–I went and looked. My book is a guide book to a lecture series; I played the actual video, and he was thinking of Egyptian, Mayan, Sumerian, Chinese, and Minoan. But he does say “at least” so there could be others.

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              11. Great work & nice & concise (a feature we sometimes lack, we’ll take your distinctiveness & make it our own–loose Borg Queen quote from Star Trek: First Contact) 🙂

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            3. Do you know of a graphic that can show diagrammatically what you are conveying here? It sounds like it could represent an extremely complicated outline hierarchically, even just a Cliff Notes style version…Very Interesting stuff!

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            1. 🙂 & I thought it was a nightmare when Josiah & other special needs kids were taught “sight words” rather than phonics. A sure way to Guarantee they would have significant challenges with reading!

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              1. Oh, God, Valerie. I’m so sorry to hear that.

                Look-say is a scam, designed to be one tool to dumb down the population.

                My Mom suffered from it being used before WWII in the mainstream curriculum. She was exceptionally bright, and didn’t have autism or any other special needs issues, except dyslexia, caused by the look-say method.

                She went on to join the 1st generation in her family to finish college, became an avid adult reader, a reading tutor for children, and held public office.

                It came out of Gallaudet College, for teaching deaf kids, where any kind of phonics would be difficult or impossible to implement.

                Both Gallaudet and the look-say method are associated with Yale University, and specifically with the ghoulish, “elite” frat house of “Skull and Bones”.

                Please read Antony Sutton’s book on Skull and Bones for more information on that.

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              2. Thanks! I’m sorry for what your mother endured. She sounds like an amazingly resilient women. What a blessing to have a mother who knows how to overcome & persevere. Blessings!

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          1. I’ll caveat this by saying that modern linguists don’t believe there was a tower of Babel (or at least no event where people suddenly could not understand each other)–gradual language change that we can see in the historical record is sufficient to explain the whole mess.

            That aside, Sumer started up in 3100 BC, and that’s about when the first Egyptian writing appears, and at least one Bible-based chronology places the Tower of Babel at 2242 BC. (I got that number off of “Answers in Genesis.” Other calculations will undoubtedly give different answers, so I wouldn’t consider this number to be anything better than an approximation.)

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            1. ” I wouldn’t consider this number to be anything better than an approximation” probably true for Any Number put out there, though certain “experts” may be less willing to admit this is so! 🙂

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              1. Biblical chronology is subject to different interpretations.

                Archbishop Ussher, who is most commonly followed in the English speaking world, put Genesis 1 in 4004 BC.

                But the Eastern orthodox put it at 5208 BCE, and Russia was on a calendar starting from that date until 1700/7208. By their reckoning this would be 7528 years since the beginning of the world; quite a bit different from 6024.

                And that’s from interpreting the SAME text, which, let’s face it, was written by people who (inspired or not) weren’t into calendrical precision sometimes.

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          2. Valerie,

            I’m not a Biblical thinker like you. In fact, I’m not religious.

            But archeologists and secular scholars, and I think some religious scholars, too, believe that the idea of the Tower of Babel is based on the penchant of the Babylonian priests for building ziggurats, which were great, stepped ramp structures used for astronomical observations. They performed roughly the same astronomical functions as pyramids in Egypt, Central America, and Mexico.

            But the first astronomical observations of that type were made by the Sumerians in what is now southern Iraq. They preceded the Babylonians by quite a bit, and were considered the 1st river valley civilization. It’s believed that they discovered writing.

            Babylonian priests studied the Sumerian language and cuneiform script for both pagan religious purposes and as a transmission belt for secular knowledge, such as continuing the Sumerian sky observations. Though, I should hasten to add, in those civilizations our distinction between religious and secular was completely unknown.

            In _Asimov’s Guide to the Bible_, the late biologist, science fiction writer, and popular nonfiction writer Isaac Asimov went through the description in Genesis of the location of the Garden of Eden, and determined that it was in what is today southern Iraq (i.e. exactly where Sumer was,) though Sumer would have been a long-lost civilization by the time Genesis was written.

            This is why it takes a round-about description to spell out for the ancient Hebrews where it was, and why Asimov must jump through hoops of various lost languages and place names to pick it out for us.

            Anyway, as the 1st river valley civilization, Sumerian culture represents the first development of mass slavery in history, because a very small priestly caste and a larger, but still small, middle class of craftsmen and merchants lived off the labor of a huge mass of farmer-serfs.

            All of the later river valley civilizations followed this model.

            The ancient Israelites, believing in freedom, and having a somewhat more egalitarian ethos, may have been horrified by all this (and, according to the story, their own ancestors had been slaves in the Egyptian river valley civilization,) and must have reflected on it deeply.

            The Sumerians discovered writing, mathematics, astronomy, architecture, a division of labor economy, and so many things that we depend on today.

            Yet, the development of their culture meant that life went from hunter- gather type, where more-or-less every adult male in the tribe, in principle, could potentially excel and prosper, and the total amount of physical labor for male tribesmen was relatively modest, to a river valley feudalism type, where the great majority of commoners had to do back-breaking agricultural work from dawn to dusk almost year round.

            So if there is anywhere where men had to begin “earning their living by the sweat of their brow,” it was Sumer. And this stupendous transformation of human life for the broad mass of people occurred, according to modern scholars like William McNeil, in what is now southern Iraq, (exactly where the Book of Genesis locates the Garden.)

            And the iconic architectural symbols of ancient river valley civilizations, namely the ziggurat and the pyramid, with shapes chosen for reasons of facilitating astronomical observations, may have served for the ancient Hebrews as symbols of an evil social system, with broad bases, tapering sides, and very narrow tops.

            And all this increase in physical labor for the commoner, and diminution in equality, came about from the development of irrigated agriculture, which entailed enormous advances in botany, written language, numerical mathematics, 2 dimensional and 3 dimensional geometry, building crafts, architecture, civil engineering of all sorts, metallurgy and metal working, astronomy, etc.

            In short, an increase in knowledge (by their priests) marked the downfall of the common man.

            Liked by 1 person

              1. Oh, of course, Steve. Thank you for pointing that out!

                In my haste, I focused on where, practically, Valerie could find the information in an accessible form, not on whom had done the heavy lifting of generating it.

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              2. That’s good to know!

                Here’s some links to that source from a DuckDuckGo search…

                https://www.holybooks.com/asimovs-guide-to-the-bible/

                https://archive.org/stream/AsimovsGuideToTheBibleTheOldAndNewTestaments2Vols.IsaacAsimov/Asimov%27s+Guide+to+the+Bible_+The+Old+and+New+Testaments+%282+Vols.%29+-+Isaac+Asimov_djvu.txt

                https://archive.org/details/AsimovsGuideToTheBibleTheOldAndNewTestaments2Vols.IsaacAsimov

                Hope these are helpful; they sound like they have everything & it’s freely accessible, but I didn’t go to any of the sites…just passing them along FYI 🙂

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            1. I’m Not religious either!!! In fact I rarely darken the door of Any church any more (lots of long stories there)…but I’m still very actively engaged in a personal faith relationship with Jesus & with the Body of Christ (believers in Jesus of whatever stripe, wherever they are)…it’s just a world view I possess & work hard to refine, believing in the Concept of Absolute Truth as found in God & God Alone (& no human attempt to arrive at a complete & clear understanding of that Truth is possible while we still live “in the flesh” in my opinion)… 🙂

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            2. It’s funny that you mention the ziggurats, for that is discussed in the preface to the NIV study Bible I mentioned in another comment on this page…also in connection to Babel.

              Here’s a page at Bible Gateway that discusses the Tower of Babel & ziggurats:

              https://www.biblegateway.com/topics/tower-of-babel

              “our distinction between religious and secular was completely unknown.” I think that may have been true for many early Western scientists as well. The seeming religious objections to the search for knowledge may have been of more a human nature to maintain power over others than a deeply humble conviction of faith being afraid of being blown apart.

              There are still people of very strong faith & a dedication to True Science that can not become schizophrenic in the pursuit of Truth, in all the many ways it is manifest. Wolfmoon would be an example, as would many creation scientists/intelligent design explorers, climate scientists refuting AGW, etc.

              Also true scientists recognize the huge politicization of the scientific arena–so that it is now beholden to financial backers & political overlords & is rarely, if ever, truly & dispassionately scientific at all! Think Fauci for example…

              I have a scientific mind, was a Bio-Medical Chemistry major, pre-med, undergrad. I love the objective, relentless pursuit of observable phenomena. As also a person of faith it is completely Unscientific for “science” to not even allow for the Possibility that there is some type of divine being or exalted intelligence that many of us would call “God” at work in this world.

              You don’t have to be Any type of believer to perform double blind studies that include some sort of faith factor (there was one such study on the effectiveness of prayer, I believe) & to Objectively report the results, even if one’s atheistic or agnostic view cannot allow them to personally Believe in some type of supernatural force. They could postulate “positive energy” or some type of New Age “nonsense” (to me) as a Possible explanation for the effectiveness of prayer, for instance, but if they were being Truly Scientific they wouldn’t close Any door to knowledge, even if they personally thought that door was a fantasy…think the placebo effect….

              Also the so-called “separation of Church & State” is a myth as it is presented currently. There was a guarantee that the US would never enforce a State Mandated religion. That SoCaS statement was in a private letter from Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptist Association, I believe, to reassure them that the Church would be protected from Any type of governmental interference! Ha, that “non -establishment” clause is misunderstood & the no prohibition “in the free exercise thereof” is completely disregarded!!!

              How the founders understood this is best grasped by looking at many of the early actions they took (off the top of my head so might be somewhat incorrect in my recall):

              Opened the first session of the Supreme Court with Christian Communion & hours of prayer

              One of the first acts of Congress was to have Bibles printed at public expense to evangelize the Indians in Christianity &/or to be used in public schools to educate our children!

              Interracial marriage was fine in early colonies, as long as both marriage partners were of the same faith (presumably Christian)

              Christianity was a requirement to serve in public office for some time

              Some states established their own State Religion and the US didn’t fight them on this State’s right

              Writings of the founding father’s suggest that they expected the majority of the people of the USA to be people of strong, typically Christian, faith

              The power of specific organized religion, like the Church of England (people were Required to pay tithes to that church & taxes to that state) or the supreme (& seemingly corruptible) power of the Catholic Church, were anathema to our founders. So many of the original colonists fled religious persecution for holding different convictions than those required by whatever religious despot they lived under overseas. I think that concern about religious despotism reared up in concerns over JFK, as in would he be more loyal to the Pope than to the Constitution. Also re: aka BHO, would he be more loyal to Islam (or Communism) than to the USA–we’ve gotten an answer in spades to that latter inquiry!

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              1. Christianity was a requirement to serve in public office for some time

                If so that was a violation of article 6 of the original constitution.

                And yes, states were originally allowed to keep their established churches; the BOR wasn’t originally conceived of as applying to the states.

                But one thing bothers me about this line of argumentation–if this were intended to be a country based on a sort of “generic” Christianity (not any specific sect)…surely that would be mentioned in the Constitution!

                It wasn’t. In fact, Article 6 that I mentioned above indicates to the contrary. Furthermore the oath of office for the president gives the option for the president elect to “affirm” which was an option thrown in for non-Christians (and it does not end with “So help me God!”).

                It is my belief that the Establishment Clause was intended to work in BOTH directions…government to be kept out of religious practices AND VICE VERSA…the government was not to be used to impose religion or faith on anyone or to propagate it.

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              2. You may be correct, but then how do we explain the Congress printing Bibles for both evangelism & education? Is it purely because so many of the era were Christians themselves so they weren’t troubled by any perceived conflicts? How about taking Christian Communion?

                It is a Very Complicated topic & a true understanding would surely involve (at a minimum) partaking of the discussions that are preserved of how the 1st Amendment, & the Bill of Rights, came to be…

                You raise good points & I’m not familiar enough with the early actions to debate it articulately. It would require digging further into those founding documents & discussions & not just cherry picking statements that seem to support any particular perspective…

                If the quote above is accurate then the religious people implies Judeo-Christian & other non-militaristic faiths. Given someone’s, was it Jefferson, “millions for defense & none for tribute” stance in counteracting the Barbary Pirates, who were Muslim marauders, there is at least some evidence that Islam didn’t meet the “moral” aspect of a people who were able to be governed by our style of government…at least that’s how that seems to be to me.

                There are books out there that examine the supposed Christian & Judeo-Christian roots of our nation. I haven’t read any of them so am just speaking of some things that I Think I know…

                Oh & I did, however, read a book (on a random lark) published in the late 1800s about a man who helped open up the Pacific Northwest…details here:

                Title
                How Marcus Whitman saved Oregon. A true romance of patriotic heroism, Christian devotion and final martyrdom, with sketches of life on the plains and mountains in pioneer days / by Oliver W. Nixon. Introduction by Rev. Frank W. Gunsaulus.
                Authors
                Nixon, Oliver W. (Oliver Woodson), 1825-1905
                Edition
                2d ed.
                Publication Information
                Chicago : Star publishing company, 1895.
                Description
                339 pages : frontispiece, illustrations, plates, portraits, folded map. ; 22 cm
                Subjects
                Whitman, Marcus, — 1802-1847

                It was a very revealing tale on many fronts. One thing that leaped out to me was the recounting of the Requests of various Indian tribes to be taught about Jesus. There is a recounting of several Indians travelling from Out West to a relatively civilized community in Kansas, I believe.

                While in that community the Indians were taken to the various churches in town. In none of those places did they encounter the powerful God they were seeking. I believe it was on a grueling return trip to their people that they encountered Marcus Whitman, who introduced them to the Lord & they rejoiced. All but one of these Indians died on their further return journey, but the one who survived spread a vibrant Christian faith through so many Indian peoples of the era.

                Marcus & his wife & a number of people in their community were massacred by some of the very people they had ministered to…I don’t remember all the details, but that book is well worth the read. It is quite illuminating compared to the way we are “taught” aspects of American history now…

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              3. “Christianity was a requirement to serve in public office for some time
                If so that was a violation of article 6 of the original constitution.”

                That could mean that we don’t now really understand what the founders meant by article 6. It seems unlikely that the very people who toiled tirelessly to fashion a document worthy of creating the type of government they envisioned would turn around & then “violate” what they had labored meticulously to have established…

                This view you expressed is surely “informed” by the major duplicity that we’ve seen on display for generations in this much watered down version of the “land of the free & the home of the brave” in which we currently labor & suffer under abject tyranny & abuse–statement colored by being currently under the state dictator of Michigan, I mean the governor…whatever…sigh 😦

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              4. Have you read Article 6?

                It ends with a paragraph requiring all senators and representatives, and state legislators, and all executive and judicial officers (both US and state) shall be bound by oath or affirmation to support this contitution. After a semicolon, the last bit reads “but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.”

                So ends the Constitution, aside from an article describing how it was to be ratified.

                It seems pretty clear to me; any “religious test” was, and is, strictly prohibited. It might be argued that this wasn’t so at the state level, much like a lot of things in the BOR originally weren’t. But the Fed Gov was intended to be secular (which is not the same thing as atheist); that was understood well enough that during the ratification debates, many devout Christians complained about it. And the complaints continued at least until the 1830s.

                The religious beliefs of the Founders is itself a tricky topic, and is subject to interpretation by quotes taken out of context. Many undoubtedly were devout. (Patrick Henry, and Rev. Witherspoon being among them). But people like Jefferson, Washington, and Morris…are a lot harder to pin down, and I suspect many founders were Deists, not Christians. And Thomas Paine (“these are the times that try men’s souls”) was probably not even a Deist. (Indeed many of the references to the divine in the Declaration of Independence were made in forms a Deist would have preferentially used, but they were such that Christians would not disagree with them. “Endowed by their Creator,” for instance. That wouldn’t offend a Christian, but a Christian would have said “endowed by God” or “their Lord” or something like that, more likely.)

                The Deism of the era, incidentally, was a belief that a divine being had created the universe as a benign environment for us, and that the creator wanted us to do well and prosper, but didn’t have an interest in involving himself in our lives nearly so much as the God of Christianity does.

                There’s even a decent amount of evidence that many thought religion was for the masses, and reason was for the more intellectual level of society. Morality to them was something you arrive at by reason, but most people needed religious indoctrination to be moral. (Yes, that’s incredibly elitist, but as near as I can tell it is the truth.) This is why John Adams said “Moral and Religious People” in the quote/meme you pasted in. Why bother separating the two and calling them out separately, if they were (in his conception) in fact the same thing?

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              5. I have not read Article 6, or at least not in many years…Yes, I agree that the government was formed as neutral to religion & even perhaps secular as you say.

                There’s no doubt that the tapestry of history represented in the new nation’s inhabitants was woven from those who’d experienced great injustices at the hands of religious & governmental despots alike.

                Surely the very separation of powers doctrine grows out of a clear & biblical understanding of human nature. That being that humans are fallen from Grace; that they seek to serve themselves; that power concentrated in any body, civic or religious tends toward corruption & consolidation. Pitting 3 branches against each other in an unending turf war was a genius move on the part of the founders to at least slow that inevitably relentless march toward tyranny.

                Well, it is surely an interesting topic & difficult to unravel from our perch in this day and age with limited access to original works. Even in searching for an appropriate “meme” I discovered that searches I’d done before on these similar topics resulted in completely different things. Like “someone” scrubbed certain memes & substituted the opposite perspective only, almost like it was deliberate…

                Back during BHO’s usurpation I did a Ton of reading on the Natural Born Citizenship issue. That was a fascinating realm to explore. There were many, sometimes highly charged, opinions. Often the Constitution and subsequent court decisions were part of what was dissected. Those that built a case for their perspective using founding documents & the volumes of law available to them for consultation in that era, combined with discussions of the differences between English & French jurisprudence, seemed to be the most persuasive to my way of thinking…but then I’d be a Strict Constructionist & my background makes me bauk at the word “strict” 🙂

                Liked by 1 person

              6. Yes…& Amen. Josiah’s twin Brandon came home while Whitmer’s propaganda show was on. He decided to use a # promoted to point out how she was dodging the “separation of powers” question from a reporter…

                He’s a big-time conservative culture warrior too & probably better at “speaking the truth in love” than I am! I’m very proud of my kids & thankful that they’ve, for the most part, managed to escape the Kool-aid their peers are mainlining…

                Liked by 1 person

            3. “In short, an increase in knowledge (by their priests) marked the downfall of the common man.” Now that is a fascinating take.

              It reminds me of the scene in Fiddler on the Roof where Perchech is attempting to woo Hodel by using communistic terminology with a loose veneer of Judaism over the top!

              I’m no church historian & have never studied comparative religions. That said, I’m appalled by the seemingly oftentimes abusive relationship religious authorities seem to have had over the people down through the ages. It seems that in religion, as in politics, there are often people drawn to the arena for wrong motives, to lord it over others rather than to serve & protect them. What you describe surely falls in that category!

              Romans 13:3-5 New International Version (NIV)
              3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.

              New International Version (NIV)
              Holy Bible, New International Version®, NIV® Copyright ©1973, 1978, 1984, 2011 by Biblica, Inc.® Used by permission. All rights reserved worldwide.

              https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+13:3-5&version=NIV

              I’m not familiar with Asimov’s Guide to the Bible nor whether Asimov has a personal faith understanding…

              http://www.angelfire.com/wi/mikebru/Alps.html

              Skimming the above it appears that Asimov was an atheistic but raised Orthodox Jew. That conflict alone would render his analysis of the Bible to be also highly conflicted…I would use his work cautiously as he likely possessed a Hostility & not just a scientifically inquiring neutrality in regards to biblical things…

              It’s so hard to find good sources of information. My graduate studies were in a seminary alongside many people who would go on to become pastors. I was studying counseling so wasn’t required to learn the Biblical languages nor how to “rightly divide the word of truth”.

              I was exposed to the concept of “textual criticism” & a semi-scientific way certain types of people analyzed the efficacy & sourcing & authenticity & authorship of the various books of the Bible. Some giants in some of these fields were atheists themselves, surprisingly…

              It is very complicated & always prudent to “consider the source” & then consider their motivations…

              I experienced difficult & soul crushing aspects of oppressive legalism in various Christian settings & am therefore very attuned to anything that smacks of abuse & control in religions…

              I frankly Love what you’ve shared about ancient languages & cultures & find so much of this very fascinating!!! I also appreciate the scholarship of archaeologists who continue to uncover, discover, & recover so many fragments of our ancient past civilizations. Using the Bible as a tool to understand some of the ancient events & personages is a bonus.

              Discovering the Life-Giving, Soul-Sustaining, Paradise-Guaranteeing aspects of a faith journey as a follower of Jesus is worth the search…

              I believe that All Truth is God’s Truth, so if one is truly seeking after Truth they will be able to find Him!

              If you are interested in exploring some of these concepts further I have a couple of posts you May appreciate & even be challenged by…Blessings!

              This post speculates on the Tree of Life & juxtaposes what’s said in Genesis & then in Revelation…some of this might be interesting to you & your feedback would likely be quite unique given your lack of a biblically informed background…

              https://specialconnections.wordpress.com/2018/08/27/living-water/

              So I went through a computer shut down & didn’t lose this message!

              Here is a post that has some ancient genealogy &/or people groups, based on the Bible, charts near the end…

              https://specialconnections.wordpress.com/2018/09/02/abel-true-father-of-faith/

              This one deals with how God is longing for both Jews & Gentiles (non-Jews) to come to Him to make us one Family of God…

              https://specialconnections.wordpress.com/2016/10/12/christianity-judaism-one-in-the-olive-tree/

              This one goes into the concept of adoption, both from a human aspect & God’s adopting us into His Family. My mom was adopted & one of the things that I’ve done was teach myself genealogical sleuthing techniques & unearth both sides of her birth family…

              https://specialconnections.wordpress.com/2018/09/30/family-its-more-than-just-blood/

              Well that’s certainly more than enough 🙂

              Thanks again for all you have shared in this lively conversation. You & Steve Rock!!!

              Like

    3. Yes, that’s very true & why the social sphere mostly misunderstands Josiah & we usually have a family member or staff available to assist him in navigating the “real world” still.

      Now that he is much higher functioning–this is likely partially because his liver transplant allowed the filtering out of toxins that had built up throughout his body for 17 1/2 years–he was able to speak directly to some of the abuses he experienced in earlier childhood inflicted on him by a special education system that refused to acknowledge nor address the autism aspects of his needs.

      They also refused to allow him to be educated with “regular” peers except for blow-off classes like art & gym for many years until we finally went through a due process case against special ed & got most of what we asked for in settlement (that they immediately refused to carry through the bulk of, so wasn’t worth the paper it was printed on–sigh).

      Once he was out of high school he started unloading some of his extreme emotional pain of being yanked away from regular peers & forced into the “cognitively impaired” classroom in his elementary school, the only special ed room in that school. At that time he was reading on grade level, though not comprehending to the same degree, & many of the special ed kids couldn’t read nor write. Staff interpreted his meltdowns when forced into the special ed room as “proof” that that was where he belonged…

      Thanks for your observations here & your logical insight. It was truly God’s mercy to me & our family that that insight about J’s communication became a big key to unlocking more of the real person that had been hidden in plain sight for so long!

      Liked by 5 people

    4. “That’s why I can’t buy the notion of a culture that ONLY talks by alluding to stories.”
      ______________

      Ah well…it’s best not to even try to apply logic to tv shows, especially the scifi genre.

      I mean, the aliens on Darmok were speaking in allegorical phrases, yes…but they were doing it in English!
      Haaaa.
      😄🤣

      Liked by 4 people

        1. What’s interesting is watching British spy moves like the one about the WWI-era spy on whom James Bond is loosely based. The Germans and Russians speak with British accents of course so I have to remind myself that they are Germans and Russians. A British audience, of course, doesn’t see it as an “accent” so they don’t have this cognitive dissonance of characters of some nationality speaking in the “wrong” foreign accent.

          Liked by 1 person

          1. It’s along the lines of watching Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon in dubbed American English…it looses something of its character that way. It’s a beautiful movie & much better enjoyed in the original language, even with the hassle of subtitles…

            This is also very true in The Passion of the Christ. I appreciate the attention to detail in the linguistics. The way “Mary” pronounces Jesus’ name sounds like Ee-esh-u-uh, perhaps closer to the Aramaic way of saying Joshua. The Pharisees word for Ceasar sounds a lot like Kaiser to me too…Using those languages helps to transport the viewer more to that time & place…

            Liked by 1 person

            1. Caesar probably was pronounced very much like Kaiser is today. We can’t be certain but there’s a “reconstructed” Latin pronunciation (and a Greek one) that often differs greatly from Church Latin or modern Greek, respectively.

              I never saw that movie but I’m told it was scrupulously accurate on setting, scenes, etc.

              Liked by 1 person

              1. That is well worth your time, but it is not easy to watch, but beautiful in so many ways. We try to watch it every few years to remind us of Christ’s sacrifice in a more tangible way…

                Like

      1. Indeed, a REALITY-BASED episode on trying to discuss such a species (refer back to what Steve said about what I would call a “phonetic hack”, which is basically a KLUDGE leaning on HUMAN hardware bias to aural communication) would end up being a lot like either (1) the crystal creatures which called humans “ugly bags of mostly water” or (2) the rock-moving critter (“horta”) which only yielded to Spock’s direct communications methods, with the further complication that “no Rosetta stone exists, and our Rosetta-generating algorithms are not working”.

        At that point, we end up going back to child-like learning of language – exposure to data until rules become apparent to our own neural net – but now imagine a collective intelligence which rapidly attains and wields such data directly between foci – then it would seem that quickly the ability to “get” artificially created indirection becomes a useful recreation, then a tool, then a realization that all language is basically associative and we’re back at nothing and everything and WTH is next?

        OMG, MEMES ARE IMPORTANT.

        😉 Good morning, Q Treepers. It’s just another amazing day under T R U M P ! ! !

        Liked by 2 people

        1. We’ve deciphered enough unknown writing systems from our own history to have come up with “five pillars” we need to satisfy or we won’t succeed.

          1. We need to know what type of script it is: an alphabet, a syllabary, or a mixed type (phonetic, semantic plus word signs, like Chinese). We can usually figure that out just by counting distinct characters, provided we have a large enough sample of texts.

          2. It has to be a large body of texts, preferably a very diverse one.

          3. If the language is already known, somehow, it’s a lot easier to decipher an unknown writing system for it. We can figure out the language by linguistic reconstruction, if necessary (and descendant languages are available).

          4. Context, including if we know some of the proper names (places and people) via other information.

          5. Biscripts; places where a known language and the unknown language occur together, saying the same thing. The Rosetta stone is a very famous example of this. It can also help if we find pictures with captions in the target script.

          The more of these that are missing, the tougher it will be. In many cases, we know it’s just flat out impossible unless we uncover more stuff. Not much hope for Linear A or the Indus River valley script.

          Liked by 3 people

          1. ” Not much hope for Linear A or the Indus River valley script.”

            Fascinating all that you shared…can you expand from this quoted sentence?

            Have you heard about the ancient Hebrew characters inscribed on stone in the Americas somewhere, possibly in the US Southwest that are as yet, to my knowledge, unexplained?

            Liked by 1 person

            1. Never heard about the Hebrew characters.

              Linear A was the name archaeologists gave to the writing of the Minoan culture of Ancient Crete. This was extant about 2000-1200 BC, and there are echoes of it in Greek mythology; the tale of the Minotaur in the Labyrinth is about the capital at Knossos. There is an even earlier script seen on the Phaistos disk, but there’s not nearly enough there to begin to decipher.

              We don’t know what that civilization called themselves; we call them the Minoans, after Minos, the king from that legend. We do know that Greeks from the mainland apparently conquered the place around 1200 BC–that’s called the Mycenaean civilization. They had modified Linear A, into a script called Linear B. A man named Ventris was able to prove that Linear B was the writing system for a VERY old form of Greek; the Greek alphabet we know today (that is ancestral to both our alphabet and the Cyrillic alphabet) came about after the Mycenaean culture collapsed.

              Some guesses can be made as to the SOUNDS of Linear A, based on Linear B. If those are plugged into the LInear A texts we have…it’s like no other language known today. But we really don’t know.

              The Indus river valley civilization is enigmatic, it arose in what is now modern Pakistan, about 3300 BC, and lasted two thousand years.

              And we know virtually nothing about them. We have no real idea what their language was like, but we have samples of their writing.

              There are other undeciphered scripts. The Etruscan civilization arose in Italy in about 800 BC and eventually fell to the Romans. They too picked up their alphabet from the Greeks (the Romans actually got the Latin alphabet from the Etruscans). So we actually have a good idea how Etruscan sounds from reading the symbols, but there’s so little left of it we just don’t understand the language. (Apparently some Romans wrote dictionaries; we know of them today–but they were lost.)

              Meriotic was a language spoken to the south of Egypt, by a people who managed to conquer Egypt in the 8th century BC, founding the 25th dynasty. They greatly modified Egyptian hieroglyphs, but their language died out around 350 AD, and we can’t read it.

              Liked by 2 people

              1. Fascinating! Love it. We used to get Biblical Archaeological Review, before we had kids, but I never did read it thoroughly enough. Thank you for sharing these very interesting details!!!

                I’m not remotely claiming that this is from a credible source, just found it on a quick search…so maybe some clues are here:

                “The Scattered Tribes of Israel
                Inscriptions:

                In 1889, the Smithsonian’s Mound Survey project discovered a stone in a burial mound in eastern Tennessee on which is inscribed ancient Hebrew lettering. Known as The Bat Creek Stone, experts have identified its letters as being Paleo-Hebrew dating from the first or second century A.D. Some of the letters spell out: “for Judea.”
                An abridged version of the Ten Commandments was found carved into the flat face of a large boulder resting on the side of Hidden Mountain near Los Lunas, New Mexico. Known as The Los Lunas Inscription, its language is Hebrew, and the script is the Old Hebrew alphabet with a few Greek letters mixed in.
                Artifacts:

                In June 1860, David Wyrick found an artifact on the general shape of a keystone near Newark, Ohio that is covered in four ancient Hebrew inscriptions translated as: “Holy of Holies,” “King of the Earth,” “The Law of God” and “The Word of God.”
                In November of that same year, Wyrick found an inscribed stone in a burial mound about 10 miles south of Newark, Ohio. The stone is inscribed on all sides with a condensed version of the Ten Commandments or Decalogue, in a peculiar form of post-Exilic square Hebrew letters. A robed and bearded figure on the front is identified as Moses in letters fanning over his head.”

                https://www.liveabout.com/history-mystery-ancients-in-america-2593550

                from the same source under “Greeks & Romans in the New World”

                “In 1966, a man named Manfred Metcalf stumbled upon a stone in the state of Georgia that bears an inscription that is very similar to ancient writing from the island of Crete called “Cretan Linear A and B writing.” ”

                There is a section about Asians on the West Coast & given our CA Dem Chi-Com issues that’s fairly interesting conceptually! 🙂

                Liked by 1 person

              2. I have a confession to make: I just, a week ago, watched a course on this topic and I used the guidebook as my source for both this and the post I did on the “five pillars” of decipherment.

                Oh, I’ll add something about the Phaistos Disk…it appears to be the oldest piece of writing in Europe and is on display at the museum at Iraklion, Crete. The Minoan civilization is the oldest in Europe, and can be considered “Where Europe Began” and much artwork has been recovered both on Crete and Santorini. They had plumbing 1000 years before Rome.

                Liked by 2 people

              3. So you’re not Wile E Coyote Super Genius all by your lonesome, hmm? 🙂 Glad your toes occasionally trail in the dust with us mere mortals when your flight apparatus (wings?) occasionally fatigues!

                Liked by 1 person

        2. I’m thinking you’re loosely referring to some of that Corso connected stuff…also, my view of your final line unfortunately looks like T
          R U M P
          :& he’s definitely Not the hind end of anything! 🙂

          Liked by 1 person

      2. I mean, the aliens on Darmok were speaking in allegorical phrases, yes…but they were doing it in English!

        I actually bought a copy of the writer’s guide to that series–from before it came out (I am sure it got revised a lot over the years). (Being able to go to Star Trek fan gatherings in the LA area led to all kinds of interesting pre-debut opportunities. For instance I own one of the communicator badges; they mass produced hundreds, maybe thousands of them. Not those cheesy flat metallic-shiny ones–the actual matte painted, high relief one they used in the show.)

        The guide was basically written in an effort to avoid scriptwriters introducing inconsistencies, which happened often in the original series. (One thing that later evolved. If a script writer needed a character to talk in technical terms about ship systems, he’d just put “[tech]” in and let the people who produced the show write that part, so at least the techno-babble would be consistent and make some sort of sense.)

        Anyhow, the guide claims the communicator badges had translator units in them. Which raises more questions than it answers, actually, (why do you not hear the translation coming out of the badge? for that matter, when using it for a communicator, how does it know to drop the connection when you’re done?) but at least they were aware of the problem!

        Liked by 2 people

        1. So you’re actually a real life example of the Galaxy Quest kids that helped Tim Allen’s group of “has-beens” land “safely” in time for the Sci-Fi Convention, hmm??? Hilarious! I’m going to find your picture right now!

          There you are!

          Or if you still live in your mom’s basement with your lizzard LOL (ironically irl Josiah lives in our basement!!!)

          Maybe you’re here trying to blend in with your peeps…

          I’m hoping these are received in the spirit in which they are shared…

          Liked by 1 person

  2. Valerie…I found that ‘Darmok’ episode of STNG on the Dailymotion site, for free:

    .
    The video seems to be flipped, a mirror image of the orig…so the credits are backwards.
    Other than that, it looks to be the full episode.
    😊

    Couldn’t find it on Youtube, not the full episode.
    Except for the CBS upload, which there is a charge for.

    Liked by 3 people

      1. Yes…and I love them!
        Great finds!
        😁👍

        And you are very welcome, on the video find.

        I noticed you mentioning using Bing for your searches…
        Have you tried DuckDuckGo?

        https://duckduckgo.com/

        It’s a good alternative that doesn’t Track You, and doesn’t hide things and put your search results through a Leftist Filter.
        Not like Bing and Google do on their search results.
        😉😏

        That’s how I found the ‘Darmok’ video.

        The search function on Youtube [which is Google] sucks, bigtime.

        I searched with DuckDuckGo, using…STNG Darmok S05E02…and then clicked on “Videos” after the results came up.

        Liked by 2 people

        1. Thanks for the heads up on that. I’ve used DDG but not for a while. Someone else here at the Q-Tree made it sound like DDG was starting to have problems too.

          Elsewhere someone said that google was more “unlocked” now since one can find “clinton body count” & adrenochrome etc stuff through it. I won’t even use G as a verb, but then I don’t have a cell phone either 🙂

          I guess if we tend to pull images & gifs from different search sources we might come up with some different stuff which only enhances the flavor of the stew in this melting pot!

          Glad you like those wolves! Blessings

          Liked by 2 people

  3. “My experience with being, by nature, a “naysmith”, in the real world is that it is rarely valued.”

    ____________

    I’m sure it is valued by other naysmiths, who recognize that quality in others when they see it 😁

    Liked by 4 people

    1. Thanks Sadie. I’m so thankful that it was graciously received. Kinda scary stepping out that first time among all the mental giants here. This is a place where I am Never the smartest kid in the room!!! Blessings 🙂

      Liked by 3 people

      1. “I’m so thankful that it was graciously received. Kinda scary stepping out that first time among all the mental giants here.”

        ____________

        It could be they’re just wearing really big hats. 😁

        Liked by 2 people

  4. “When I threw that concept out in that medical conversation Josiah stopped squirming & stared me dead in the eyes (he had Major eye contact issues by that point) & his countenance said “Finally you get me!” I still get chills thinking about that time, for it was pretty revolutionary in how we as a family came to view & better understand Josiah. He wasn’t just babbling randomly at all, he was trying to reach out to us using character voices & situations.”

    _____________

    What an incredible moment it must have been for Josiah, the first time he knew that he was understood.

    To be trying so hard to communicate, but no one was able to recognize his ‘language’. Like shouting into the void… and one day the most important person in his life suddenly looked at him with understanding.

    The connection was made. The signal got through, and the door to his world was opened.

    That is so huge

    I am so happy for Josiah and for you Valerie 🙂

    Liked by 8 people

    1. Yes, Scott…so very well said & comprehended here–Thank you. I’ll have to see if I can get him to expound on his view of all that transpired after he reads this post. He’s already excited knowing that I mentioned him by name within it! He’s definitely Not shy!

      Liked by 5 people

        1. As a teenager, I was privileged to see the Miracle Worker with Ann Bancroft and Patty Duke in NYC. It was very powerful….unforgettable.

          Liked by 4 people

  5. I love the colors of the header image & when it’s enlarged I can see that it’s also displaying Northern Lights, which I absolutely love & have been privileged to see only a handful of times in my life! What an extra blessing from above! No pun intended 🙂

    I saw multi-colored Northern Lights as a child in Northern Michigan while on vacation. My dad woke me up & carried me on his shoulders to the beach to observe. They weren’t as dramatic as this image but contained at least 4 colors…breathtaking.

    A few years back I was awake while the rest of the house slept & when I let the dog out discovered undulating curtains of green throughout the Metro Detroit sky. I woke each of my kids up & carried them out to see the Lights & also the shooting stars that were happening as well. Sadly none of the 4 of them remember this special time. I even woke my husband & parents at like 4 am to see this amazing site in such relatively Southern latitudes. It was so glorious that it could have been heralding the return of Christ with the heavens just opening up in their necessary praise!

    These were more like those viewed in Metro Detroit, but with a less gorgeous silhouette to offset their majesty…

    These are more like the ones we’d occasionally see when living in Northern Michigan

    Moar from Michigan!

    I sure hope these beautiful images show! Blessings…

    Liked by 3 people

  6. Cool post, Valerie!

    I can be a weird communicator at times, I do it with music and singing. I catch myself doing it all the time, without knowing I’m doing it, especially under stress.

    For example, I’m really struggling watching all the sheep in their masks in the grocery store. It just pisses me off to see them all give in to fear. The other day I was in line, and I caught myself singing “Baa, Baa, Black Sheep” out loud! Not a good idea!

    I also sing songs and change the words to suit myself and the situation. My kids have always thought it was hilarious. Now my daughter does it, too, and, my grand kids tease her about it. She blames me. 🙂

    I think it is amazing that you are able to communicate with your son in the way you do. How incredible for him to be lucky enough to be born into your family. Not all of us are so lucky. My parents never got me, but I am blessed and grateful that my kids, friends, and DH do.

    Liked by 7 people

    1. Love this. We sometimes do “deaf” jokes on lyrics & things for many of us it’s on purpose, for Josiah It’s often accidental serendipity & purposeful random creativity.

      Once when the kids were young & watching Veggie Tales Josiah, who at the time had significant gag reflex & oral motor defensiveness, really misheard one: “I thought you were going to talk about growing up in Connecticut”…of course his -ing word was Throwing…we still quote him for fun here!

      “I think it is amazing that you are able to communicate with your son in the way you do. How incredible for him to be lucky enough to be born into your family. Not all of us are so lucky. My parents never got me, but I am blessed and grateful that my kids, friends, and DH do.”

      I relate to what you’ve shared here more than I can say…years ago I was conversing with an old roommate & talking about many of the special needs challenges I had faced & she basically said that I was the perfect person to be a mom to someone like Josiah, that I was really equipped to handle it. (that’s not how I’ve perceived myself, then or now, but maybe God’s strength is being made perfect in spite of & because of my weakness 🙂 )

      On the other hand there’s my oldest son, Nathaniel, just 2 years older than the twins, so the only kid in our family to briefly experience a non special needs existence (discounting ADHD etc that weren’t diagnosed then & pretty tame compared to what was later coming)…he’s commented several times about how I’ve “wasted” my education (& perhaps my potential?) by being a special needs & stay at home parent. I guess it all depends on what lens you choose to view life through…

      Oh on the song front we still think of Michael Jackson’s Billy Jean as “the chair is not my son”…the fun never really ends when you’re a creative & out of the box communicator. So glad you have a family that Gets you & Loves you too. It can absolutely make All the difference!!!

      Liked by 1 person

  7. I don’t pretend to understand all the ‘in’ talk about the movies and books, but I do understand the difficulty autistic son has with communicating and how doing it ‘second hand’ or through the filter of movie quotes gives him a sense of safety and detachment from the impact of interpersonal interaction to which autistic people have so much difficulty – and perhaps fear or dread?

    Likewise, it’s so much easier for people with traumatic histories, anxiety problems and avoidance tendencies to communicate on blogs and social media than in person. There’s a sense of freedom, detachment and security in the second-hand distance of cyberspace.

    Liked by 4 people

      1. Oh Wonder!
        How many goodly creatures are there here!
        How beauteous mankind is! O brave new world –
        that has such people in it !

        ‘The Tempest’ by Wil Shakespeare

        Such a marvelous collection of people
        in the Q Tree Valerie
        and their inner story so much brighter
        and deeper than I ever consider
        Just like yours
        Today I see the trouble scattered into the lives
        of the volunteers and leaders here, and I’m glad
        mine have been smaller
        But I am sure each one here has a friend
        who can say, ‘I saw that hard stuff coming at you,’
        and says soft as a whisper,
        ‘but I meant it for good’.

        Liked by 1 person

        1. Beautifully stated! I have Zero background in Shakespeare…though ironically my genealogical endeavors have “confirmed” if you can believe the collective family trees available through the LDS church, that my husband & kids are First Cousins to Shakespeare (many generations removed obviously), descended from a brother of his I believe. Oh the delicious irony–I know No Shakespeare (tragically 🙂 ) yet marry into his family!!! LOL

          Yes our individual tales can be such an encouragement to each other, the word of our testimony & all. That still small Voice is thundering through the ages & soul to soul here in the Q-Tree if we only have eyes to see & ears to hear & hearts to understand!

          God Bless you, my brother (or perhaps sister) 🙂

          Liked by 1 person

    1. Thanks for hanging with me on this post as long as you could Josiah. I love you! I’m so glad that you & I are are the first members of our extended family who got to share that experience, which means so much to me!

      It’s funny that when you were trying to call me from Rose’s I was on the phone with Grandma & we were praying, & earlier in the day you were praying with Rose & her family, even when you & her dad didn’t understand the Spanish some people were using. Earlier in the day I was praying & praising the Lord & really felt like there was a bit of a breakthrough in the Spirit…hmm…

      Even earlier in the day when you were blasting the War in the Heavenlies music it seemed that we were all part of a continuous song of praise & spiritual warfare resounding through God’s Kingdom…You continue to bless me in your “J-Man the Praise Man” persona!

      Have a very blessed day, in Jesus’ Love 🙂
      Mom/Valerie

      Liked by 2 people

            1. Hmmm… spoilers, so I’ll probably leave you mostly hanging (I highly recommend B5 to any SF aficionado, however, it’s possibly best to start with Season 2 and then pick up Season 1 when you decide you really need to see it).

              Nightwatch was a very fascistic organization. I’ll just leave it at that. If you watch the series you’ll get to see it being formed and its true nature unfolding.

              Babylong 5 was one of the first TV series to actually tell a story arc. Star Trek (original and nextgen) basically had the situation ALWAYS resolve at the end of an episode, things were the same at the end as at the beginning. That was traditional, B5 broke that mold, there’s a 5 year long story running through it. Sometimes an episode had nothing to do with that story (common in Season 1), sometimes it was a BIG part of the story.

              Liked by 1 person

              1. I love Sci Fi (if well done)!!! If I can find this somewhere I’ll look into it. I made my way through the entirety of Battlestar Gallactica, I think on a Q-Treeper recommendation.

                I really try to keep my own fascistic tendencies under wraps, but when you’re a parent… 🙂

                Thanks for the info!

                Liked by 1 person

              2. VERY highly recommended, more so than BSG. The first season unfortunately features a wooden actor playing the commander (his character got replaced), and can be skipped if need be (though I’d recommend going back and getting it later, after you’re “hooked”–you’ll see a lot of stuff that wasn’t obvious to anyone first time around).

                B5 has the best outer-space physics of any major show, at least for Earth spacecraft, too, except that they did still have sound out there.

                Liked by 1 person

    1. From the thread:

      “In honor of #FlagsOutForFlynn: When Palm Beach Wouldn’t Allow 50-foot Flagpole at Mar-a-Lago, Trump Placed a 30-foot Flag Pole on a 20-foot Hill. USA USA USA!!!!

      He also *made* the hill first where there wasn’t one.

      All to be a patriotic “troll” to the local libtard dickheads.”

      Liked by 1 person

      1. The story says he replaced a 50 foot pole with a 30 foot pole and a 20 foot hill. But it also says the end result is 10 feet higher.

        Knowing POTUS like we do I am sure the latter statement is correct; if he finds a way to make it more annoying to the “dickheads” (a fine technical term) while compliant, he will do so. So should it have said 30 and 30, or 40 and 20?

        Liked by 3 people

  8. “anyway I know that Horus isn’t necessarily a Christ archetype character,”

    Well, maybe not in terms of moral teachings.

    But, remember that Alexandria, Egypt (along with Antioch, Syria) was one of the two cities where the Christian church first thrived, and these two were the first two cities to serve as seats of Patriarchs.

    And Egypt has always been an extremely religious country. So Egyptian mythology would have been very familiar to early Christians.

    Many scholars of comparative religion, and art historians, consider the style of visual representations of Jesus and Mary to derive from the earlier Egyptian artistic tradition of representing Horus and his mother, Isis.

    Liked by 1 person

    1. What would “seats of the Patriarchs” mean (I don’t have a Catholic nor Orthodox background)? We had a discussion with one of Josiah’s doctors, who is originally from India, & she spoke of a thriving Christian community in that country that harkens back to the ministry of one of the disciples/apostles who traveled there & died in one of their cities, I believe along the Southwestern coastline. She said that Indian believers proudly trace their history back to the man & his ministry! Oh & many of them are Catholic…

      “Many scholars of comparative religion, and art historians, consider the style of visual representations of Jesus and Mary to derive from the earlier Egyptian artistic tradition of representing Horus and his mother, Isis.”

      I’ve not studied in these areas. Wouldn’t any ancient & pre-Christian representations of a mother & child be something some would consider artistic pre-cursors to Madonna & Child imagery? I would think that artistic works from antiquity may very well be associated with a culture’s versions of “deities” or else perhaps representations of very wealthy patrons, like modern “royalty”, who are the only ones who can afford portraits by great artists. Representations that were made to last…

      I once read a translation of the Egyptian Book of the Dead & wondered if this was a work that Moses was taught in his early years in Pharoah’s household. His formal education in Egypt may have contributed to his abilities to write the Decalogue or Torah, the 1st five books of the Bible.

      I don’t know where the “heretic” king of Egypt that instituted the worship of one god “Atan/Atun” the Sun god, I believe, fit in relation to Moses Egyptian experiences. Did Israel’s presence in Egypt influence this “one god” phase of their culture since the Israeli’s were mono-theistic? I wondered if Moses or the AkenAton (or whatever the “heretic” pharoah’s name was, whose name was virtually obliterated from their history & stoneworks–how very “Muslim” of those pesky ancient Egyptians) came to view the panoply of Egyptian deities as being representations of the Attributes of the One True God, or alternatively with the “dark side” deities being representations of attributes of Satan/Lucifer/the Devil; in a false equivalency of seeing the “balance” between dark & light &/or good & evil. As in they considered “good”/God to be of equal but opposite power to bad/Satan.

      Perhaps if that AkenAtun, the pharoah that only worshiped the one “true god” that was called the “sun god” because that was how He would be understood within the Egyptian context, was in fact worshiping the only True God, the same deity YHWH, Yahweh, that the Israeli’s worshiped, though referred to Him as “the Sun God” since that would be the only culturally contextual way He could have been acceptably understood? And he needed some culturally acceptable way to introduce monotheism to get the masses to be able to go along…

      Warning: what follows may offend Catholics &/or Orthodox faiths but no offence is intended. Please forgive my feet of clay as I attempt to articulate some difficult & controversial concepts…

      This could be akin to the machinations of the early Catholic church that appeared to absorb many pagan practices into it’s non-scripturally based traditions. Hence those pagan cultures that worshiped some form of a female deity were brought in via exalting Mary as the prime female “deity” (& given the co-“Redemptrix” concepts this exalted deification has continued into the modern age), & then the way “the saints” are exalted & even praying to Mary &/or “the saints” becomes an acceptable “Christianized” version of earlier Pagan traditions whereby the masses (ironically) were able to be brought into a version of Christianity because they could continue to exalt many lesser “gods & goddesses” (now with new names & faces & back-stories), but which practice is far removed from that which is found in the Scripture itself. It is as if the Pagan practices underpin much of the Traditions that underpin Catholicism while the Scripture (which is usually the Only authority considered by Protestants) is more the underpinning of the bulk of the doctrine of Catholicism. This is how I’ve come to make sense of the wide gap in the practices of Catholicism (& perhaps to a lesser extent the various forms of Orthodoxy) verses the general practices of Protestantism…no offence intended here…

      Anyway, there’s a lot of food for thought there, but none of what I’ve written is meant in Any sort of a Judgmental Tone, though it may come across as anti-Catholic or anti-Orthodox but that is neither my heart nor what I was implying…I’m just trying to speculate on origins of faith traditions & juxtaposing thoughts I’ve had on ancient Egypt & “the sun god” cult vs ancient Christian practices that gave rise to the visible differences in the different branches of Christianity, in a very loose sense…

      Blessings & thanks for sharing this fascinating perspective!!!

      Like

      1. In the very early church (unified church, I mean), there were five patriarchs: Rome, Antioch, Jerusalem, Constantinople, and Alexandria. There are even cathedrals in Rome today that were originally designated as “belonging” to the other four patriarchs, should they ever visit.

        Of course there was the big Schism in 1054 where East and West went their separate ways, but the four Eastern patriarchies continue to this day (albeit mostly with greatly reduced congregations). Customs are different in the four but any Eastern Orthodox can attend a church for any of them and remain/be in communion.

        Moscow, as a patriarchate, was added later.

        Eastern Orthodox church organization is pretty complicated, actually, and I’ve probably already made some sort of error (hopefully not one on the broad conceptual level), so I’ll just stop here.

        Liked by 1 person

        1. Oh, and it’s possible your contacts in India are also familiar with something called “Oriental Orthodoxy” (possibly the same thing as Nestorianism? and/or the Coptic church? I could dig but it would take time) which split with “Chalcedonian Christianity” in the 4th century. Chalcedonian Christianity is basically the group Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy and (most) Protestantism falls within; it’s numerically the bulk of Christianity.

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Orthodox_Church_organization

          Liked by 2 people

          1. No, that’s great info. Don’t do any more digging than you are motivated to pursue on your own. I pretty much always have an inquiring mind, but I also have a theoretical life 🙂 Blessings!

            Liked by 1 person

        2. When you are speaking of the “unified church” you are referring to the Before the Catholic Church phase, as in the catholic church aka universal, like in one of those Creeds (Nicene or Apostle’s I believe)?

          Isn’t the RCC somewhat fractured now, like with the Latin-only types, like Mel Gibson participates in; elements that allow female &/or married priests; full blown commies–oh wait that’s the “Pope” 🙂

          Is there like a flow chart that shows those patriarchies & where they are now? Who were the founders of these 5 patriarchies; all apostles or disciples of Christ or somewhat later?

          This is interesting to a point…thanks!

          Liked by 2 people

          1. I basically meant before 1054, when Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism split.

            The church as it existed before then had accepted the Chalcedonian creed from some ecumenical council in Chalcedon, but what is now the Oriental Orthodox church had not. So the not-yet-split Catholic/Orthodox church contained most, but not quite all, of the world’s Christians.

            Liked by 2 people

      2. Early Christian communities would have the laymen, and the prayer leader, who developed into the priest. But there was felt to be a need for quality control, so in each city, one senior, reliable priest was set above the others, and became the bishop, so he could ride herd on any priest who began teaching things contrary to Christian teaching, and resolve other problems of that type.

        But two cities were seen as the most important in Christendom, and the bishops of those cities eventually were designated Patriarchs.

        Later, Rome, the capital of the Empire, was added, when it developed a substantial Christian community. So it got a Patriarch, too.

        At some point, Jerusalem was added, as the spiritual capital of the Judeo-Christian world. So there were 4 patriarchates, but I don’t know if Rome or Jerusalem was earlier.

        Then Constantine saved the Empire from civil war, rebuilt the old Greek city of Byzantion into “New Rome, which is the City of Constantine,” and moved the secular capital there.

        “City of Constantine” in Greek is Constantinopolis. So in English that became Constantinople. And it got the fifth patriarchate.

        Many centuries later, missionaries from the Empire had converted most of the Slavonic peoples, including the Russians, to Orthodox Christianity. So Moscow became the sixth city to be named a patriarchate.

        But, before Moscow was elevated, disaster struck.

        Emperor Justinian tried to rebuild the Empire, by creating armies on novel military principles to reconquer the western provinces that had fallen to invading European tribes over the last couple of centuries, and most of which which were nominally subordinate to the Empire.

        Extremely costly civil wars resulted. A major, dangerous war with Persia also began in the east, possibly from Persian rulers sensing an opportunity that had been created by the effort on the Romans’ western flank.

        Justinian also embarked on a major building campaign, building cathedrals, chapels, monasteries, and numerous types of secular buildings throughout the Empire, especially in Constantinople.

        These included the Hagia Sophia, the Basilica of the Holy Wisdom, considered by many the most important and beautiful church in the world, until the Turks conquered the city in the mid-1400s, and converted it into a mosque.

        Then, when the Empire was was crushed by debt, and the economy was about to collapse from government overspending on military, civilian, and religious projects, as well as “pan et circenses” (“bread and circuses”,) things suddenly got very serious.

        There was an attack of bubonic plague, now believed to be the first in the Western world.

        The Black Death carried away a large fraction of the population of Europe some centuries later. It was thought to be so severe because it was a “virgin soil” pandemic, meaning neither the people struck, nor their ancestors, had ever experienced it before.

        But now, as of the end of the 20th century, we know that the Black Death was not the first attack of bubonic plague to hit Europe. This much earlier one under Justinian was.

        Because it was the true virgin soil bubonic pandemic, Justinian’s Plague was at least as deadly as the Black Death.

        Like WuFlu, the bubonic plague hit cities earlier and harder then rural areas, and seaports before inland areas.

        Unlike WuFlu, which mainly kills older people, or the regular flu, and many deadly contagions, which mainly kill the very young and the very old, bubonic plague mainly took people in the prime of life, wage earners.

        This left an urban society of young children, mostly guarded over by their grandparents, or a few other older people. (Few made it to senior citizen status in those days, even in non-plague times.)

        This is when much of the learning and technology of the Roman Empire was lost. Just scrambling for food, and trying to avoid contagion, would have taken all the adults’ time. Can you imagine being an older person trying to raise children by yourself in an impoverished, pre-mechanical age?

        By the time the crisis was over, maybe a century or two later, the geometry of civilization had changed. The Mediterranean Sea, literally, the “middle of the land”, which the Romans had called “mare nostra”, “our sea”, and which had been their highway, holding their empire together militarily and economically, had become a moat. This moat divided Christian Europe from the Islamic slave empires of the Middle East and North Africa.

        The sea became a source of horror, as wave after wave of Muslim slave raiders came across in boats to kidnap and sell Christians, especially children.

        Three patriarchates, Antioch, Alexandria, and Jerusalem, fell in a brief period to Saracen armies, not to be recovered by Christians until Antioch and Jerusalem were briefly liberated in the Crusades.

        And, in keeping with the Islamic legal and religious doctrine of _kitman_, “concealment”, the Muslims did not advertise, or allow the Patriarchs to warn their coreligionists, that they or their congregations were routinely threatened with torture, organized looting, rioting, forced conversion, massacre, etc., by the Islamic authorities.

        Even though many of these captive patriarchs were very brave, and did the best they could in nightmare circumstances, they could not, in general, be trusted in the Christian West. And most Christian authorities, except during the Crusades, have accepted their assurances that everything was OK at face value.

        It was in these exceptional circumstances of civilization-altering pandemic and Islamic conquest and horror, that the Bishop of Rome withdrew from the Council of Patriarchs, and separated the Roman Church from the Orthodox.

        Liked by 2 people

        1. This is just going to be random thoughts because you shared so much great stuff here!

          Interesting that Jerusalem wasn’t an original seat of Christianity, given things discussed in the Book of Acts. The Paul vs Peter controversies & become a Jew to follow Christ vs just follow Christ as a gentile…

          I watched an interesting & pretty blood-thirsty series on Amazon Prime called Brittannia that portrayed the Roman assault on the Celtic style warrior clans…

          There is a website, called Gates of Vienna, that is so called because that was where the last European assault of Muslims occured. Given the BHO & other commie &/or Islamophilic leaders there is now an obvious wave of invasion going on throughout the world. It’s only a matter of time before these invaders go into full Mo’ mode & start the “convert or die” crap, imho. They are definitely doing a lot of that civilization jihad stuff–which seems to be what Q might be referring to in the infiltration vs invasion stuff. I’m guessing that this might be another instance of AND logic, tragically…

          “This moat divided Christian Europe from the Islamic slave empires of the Middle East and North Africa.
          The sea became a source of horror, as wave after wave of Muslim slave raiders came across in boats to kidnap and sell Christians, especially children.” Someone at American Thinker did an amazing article on White Slaves & Barbarians or Barbery pirates I believe…fascinating stuff…

          http://tmp.americanthinker.com/articles/2019/05/islamic_sex_slavery_painting_stirs_international_controversy.html

          Thank you for that very comprehensive, highly informative, & ultimately tragic recounting of so much of that history…

          In looking at the American Thinker website there was an image for what looks like a potential plannedemic mask. It’s akin to a turtleneck shawl, you can pull it up over your nose & it drapes over the shoulders to mid chest…So the dhimmitude of America can be enforced & we’re so cowed by all the fear porn that they’ve effectively convinced even the American male to wear a form of the Islamic veil–this Really Pisses Me Off!

          You may find this interesting & the video is Well Worth Anyone’s Time. I’m copying my cliffnotes from my post here to aide:

          https://specialconnections.wordpress.com/2018/03/12/classical-civilization-was-destroyed-by-islam/

          “This scholar provides mounting evidence, insight, & analysis of the destructiveness of Islam on the world in ancient times…the graphic around time 14 minutes into the video reveals the march of Islam in the Mediterranean region in the dark ages & then around 49 minutes there is a corresponding display juxtaposing the Crusade battles…This is compelling & fascinating material from politicalislam.com…here are some quotes…

          “Over 19,000 jihad attacks since 9-11” is discussed around the 36 minute mark.

          Only 12 decades in Islam’s 1400 year history of bloodshed are jihad free–at 40:51.

          “Islam is 91% violence, 9% peace” from a graphic also at the 40:51 minute mark.

          “Islam has a doctrine of jihad that produces the effect of the collapse of civilization” around 41:30 in the video. Also “over 270, 000,000 dead in 1400 years”…

          “After 1400 years of jihad, brutality, enslavement, theft, deception, rape, annihilation and insults the Kafir mind has become identical to that of an abused victim” around 44 minutes into the video.”

          I know these aren’t what we’re discussing here but these are also important, in other areas of the culture wars!

          https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2017/07/the_forgotten_history_of_britains_white_slaves_in_america.html

          https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2016/12/emblack_slaveownersem_a_review.html

          Well here’s another “as is” comment so hopefully it’s not too incomprehensible.
          Thanks again for All that you shared here!!! Outstanding work!!!

          Liked by 1 person

          1. Yes, I used to read Gates of Vienna regularly, along with Pamela Geller and with Robert Spencer’s JihadWatch.

            That was before Trump became president, and my time got sucked into the whirlpool of studying FISAgate, Muh Russia, Q drops, banksters, etc., in an effort to support him.

            Liked by 1 person

  9. This looks interesting/promising.

    It’s a lecture about the year 1177BC, given to a skeptic’s group in DC. The speaker literally wrote the book 1177BC, and it touches on a lot of the stuff Covadonga and I talked about. I mentioned the collapse of Minoan civilization as well as the Mycenaean Greek one, and the eventual, centuries later rise of the Greeks we hear about in history class–they had to claw their way out of a dark age and re-learn how to write.

    Actually it turns out a LOT of things collapsed about then.

    The speaker knows his audience doesn’t believe the Exodus happened, but if it did it would have been around this time.

    Liked by 1 person

    1. Sounds intriguing. I have so many tabs open on my computer with recommended videos just raring to go that I’ll likely never get through them all…sadly.

      I’m thinking of sticking a lot of these videos into a blog post on my main blog, purely to create a parking spot for some great material, that others can also find in that post, if so desired…

      At the rate I’m going, by the time I try to watch some of these things YT or other censors will have hidden them deep in the Borg Cube!

      Thanks for sharing this though! Blessings!

      Liked by 1 person

              1. It’s not my computer, it;s my cell carrier.

                And upgrading would be shooting myself in the foot; I’d be forced to switch from my jet pack to my phone, which has a much worse antenna in it. Basically I’d be slow all of the the time, rather than only after I run out of my data allotment.

                Liked by 1 person

              2. Can you not buy extra data? I don’t have a cell but I do remember some family members near the end of the month. They’d make sure they were on the home wi-fi to not use up the last little bit of access. Now their plans have “unlimited” data so it seems that they are each Always on their phone…

                Liked by 1 person

              3. Grr…sorry for you for you are so Very Active here on the Q-Tree. Didn’t someone else that knows technology make some type of suggestions that could help? Like could you capture a page you want to view & as long as the text is showing mightn’t you just view it offline?

                It’d be a hassle, but you could compose your replies elsewhere, like on wordpad, & then copy/paste them at the Q-Tree when you were ready. Maybe it could save data, though increase steps in a process & perhaps be a general pain.

                Hang in there!

                Like

  10. Wow…we should have stayed up all night long to read and respond to your initial entry on the Q TREE as there is SO MUCH TO READ IN RESPONSE TO YOUR May 2nd intial work.. Both your dad and I have carefully and thoughtfully read this initial endeavor on Luna Wolf Pack and are ‘blown out of the proverbial water’ with the excellence of your work. Thrilled doesn’t begin to state how impactful seeing the gifting of ‘brain power’ (God’s ongoing work in the ability to think deeply and express articulately) is at work! I am sorry that it took until today to sit down without interruption to partake of the banquet set before us as the first to be informed! Much to contemplate upon as to WHO this amazing daughter really is! I am thankful that you have this new pallete upon which to be creative!
    Dad -Smithing (hot forging, hammering) also strengthens metal at the cellular level. When quenching steel the blade must be pointed due north or the blade will actually bend or curve to point north. Selah.

    Liked by 1 person

    1. Thank you for sharing all this, which is such an encouragement to me! Timing is actually a blessing because Josiah & I were able to share the post together first–as much as he could tolerate–(which was down to the bloody warrior wolf) & that was precious to me. Especially so since the part that most people have been discussing here centers around the “sidebar” featuring him!

      Honestly it was also special to me to tell you & Dad about the post before anyone else. It wouldn’t have worked out that way if Michael, Brandon, or Clarissa had been home. That the post happened on your 80th birthday is just epic for me. It means I might never (relatively as long as there’s some glimmer of brain functionality–in God’s Hands, as are all things 🙂 ) forget the date of this Luna Wolf Pack offering…

      “Dad -Smithing (hot forging, hammering) also strengthens metal at the cellular level. When quenching steel the blade must be pointed due north or the blade will actually bend or curve to point north. Selah.”

      This is a deeply profound point. God is literally at work in Every Level of His Creation. It’s like that video you guys showed us once. I don’t recall the name but it featured a shifting of perspectives from the sub-atomic level to the ever expanding universe…& where ever one would go there would be the Hand, the Magnificence, the Mystery, & the Majesty of God!

      True North, we navigate even in Darkness for the Lord has provided a Light to guide us. When we are His & fashioned in His forge we must resonate & orient to that Absolute Truth reflected in True North.

      I’m glad Dad brought that up because I was thinking the paragraph mentioning sword smithing was in error when referring to “iron sharpens iron”. That’s what we do to each other, knocking those rough edges off to get a sharper, cleaner cut when it’s time to speak those words of Truth in Love. That ready blade may swiftly & even deeply cut but it won’t leave a jagged wound & once the offence is removed (cancer, splinter, boil/cyst needing draining, etc.) the wound can more quickly & cleanly be closed & heal.

      Let that healing begin!

      I love you both so much & am honored & thankful that you have shared of yourselves here. Welcome to the Wolf Pack–we run Wild, Free, & True North here

      Like

      1. My Mother’s birthday was yesterday. Irises were her favorite flower. They have always been in bloom for her birthday since she has passed. Depending on the weather they are budding, waning, or in full bloom…but always in bloom.

        I seen my son to take pictures of some of our irises yesterday morning as I was cooking breakfast and text them to my sister. He asked what to say. I said, “Just the pictures of the Irises. She will know all and any words I could send.”

        We had an iris grow this year that we had not seen in the 4 yrs we have owned this property. I didn’t plant it and it is unusual, beautiful! Special.

        Miss Mom. This post touched me deeply as I would love to get words like this from my Mom. But would I value them as much if she had not passed 12 yrs ago? Probably not…spoiled rotten by her love and yet so in need of it, so unprepared to be without it.

        You obviously have lovely parents and kind, giving relationship. You are a thoughtful person and the love between you is touching. I am sure that from that relationship you draw strength and example to parent your own children.

        Touching to read the exchange between the two of you.

        I mourn differently than year ago as PHC blessed me so much by sharing his walk through his time of transition from here to heaven, his perspective, his thoughts. You have touched me as well by sharing your family relations and other insights.

        Thank you for both what you posted as well as your family’s exchange

        Liked by 1 person

        1. I’m so sorry for the loss of your mother. What a precious gift to get this new & special Iris in the season when you most reflect on her, & your loss.

          I lost my grandma when I was 13, my dad’s mom. Though I don’t believe in favorites I had felt a special closeness with her different than my other 3 grandparents. Her death was very impactful & was made more so because on the drive home (from Gaylord, if you see some of my other convos, like with Angel) from her funeral & aftermath was when my parents first told us that my mom was adopted, so her parents weren’t our “real” grandparents (my brutal way of processing that info as an adolescent reeling from Grandma’s death only to learn I’l lost my only blood grandmother).

          I’m not an overly emotional person & work to keep my emotions in check. I was completely blindsided a couple years later while observing a church theatrical production to be overcome with sobbing when the story shifted into a grandmother dying. It shocked me for that was way out of character for me & I was no longer aware that I still was grieving.

          Even all these years later, 4+ decades, if I think too intensely about my Grandma it is possible to tap into that well of sorrow & loss…& I know that’s not at all like what you’ve experienced in the loss of a beloved parent, but I understand, & am acquainted with, lingering sorrows in multiple domains.

          “You obviously have lovely parents and kind, giving relationship. You are a thoughtful person and the love between you is touching. I am sure that from that relationship you draw strength and example to parent your own children.

          Touching to read the exchange between the two of you.”

          My relationship with my parents is Much More Complex, & less God honoring than one would expect from that written exchange. I don’t want to be Pollyannish or anything, but there are plenty of bumps & hurts, some that probably go both ways…

          I hate that I’m nearer to 60 than 50 & I still desire my parents’ acceptance & approval. It makes me feel that I haven’t grown up completely. I hate that certain interactions can have damaging & wide ranging consequences. I have Very Limited Reserves of the emotional energy it takes to fend off perceived attacks & rejections so I avoid the interactions in which I think they are most likely to happen. Basically at some elemental level I’m a chicken, & I despise that in myself.

          That “naysmith” stuff I touched on in the post isn’t just because of church experiences.

          I believe I have an internal “love language” more along the lines of “words of encouragement”. My family background though loving & godly was filled with harsh & critical words. My first boyfriend almost didn’t ask me to marry him after meeting my family & being blown away by all the criticism that to his perception flowed so freely.

          I have struggled in my life with deep insecurities & pools of sorrows that I choose not to articulate. I am often part of the “walking wounded” & in many ways I perceive myself as broken & potentially unrepairable in this life. For the most part I try to avoid direct social situations because of the degree of anguish they May produce.

          When I said “Let the Healing Begin” I was also referring in a manner of speaking to my relationship with both of my parents…

          If any of this interests you further I have written about overcoming sorrows on my main blog a couple of times. Here’s the posts that come to mind.

          https://specialconnections.wordpress.com/2019/06/25/rewriting-an-old-tape-of-lies/

          https://specialconnections.wordpress.com/2018/08/18/complex-ptsd-personal-touchpoints/

          https://specialconnections.wordpress.com/2018/09/09/special-needs-parenting-trauma-ptsd/

          Thank you for what you shared! It blesses me that our relationship on display can minister to other people. In a strange way I was even praying for that to be the case. May the Lord be glorified in the things we say & do & may great good come out of them. That isn’t meant at all in the potentially preachy or holier-than-thou way it Might come across…

          It’s scary to be Out There for people to see, especially when you have fears of rejection & fears of failure. Stepping out in spite of them, in a forum filled with people who eclipse my skill set & accomplishments in so many ways (it’s not a contest thankfully 🙂 ) is also intimidating. How can I have anything to offer here?

          Well, since I often think in biblical frameworks, “silver & gold have I none, but such as I have I give”. I will try to give the gift of authenticity, transparency, & when it is unearthed resiliency. Blessings!!!

          Like

          1. In the middle of my homeschooling/housewife/local GOP “leader” day so short…

            you posted: “I hate that I’m nearer to 60 than 50 & I still desire my parents’ acceptance & approval. It makes me feel that I haven’t grown up completely.”

            My opinion: Nope, a natural desire built into us that we feel as a person – not specifically as a child (remember, we are people, a person, a human, from conception forward and that never changes).

            It is not a childish need that we learn to outgrow by filling ourselves (as children we have physical needs for food, shelter, etc. that our parents fulfill but we grow up/mature and learn to fulfill those ourselves).

            Yes, the need for approval changes over time but if we never had a measure or we were never able to receive it in the way it was given, that foundation is not there, that initial filing of that need is not there for us to then pull from in our later years.

            We still want approval from our Moms and Dads, esp. if we didn’t, or felt we didn’t, receive it at all. The craving is there, by His Design. God can ease the longing, redeem our sadness and heal old wounds.

            All of us deserve perfect parents…and none of us receive them! 😦 Babies are born deserving our love, our patients and our kindness. None receive this perfect mix.

            A sadness that I have is that I didn’t know how to receive my own Mother’s love or give love to her as she deserved. We have different personality types and different love languages. So much about her I just didn’t “get”. I am still not the same as she but I see her ways and understand her better now…just wish she was her for me to connect with now. I am a different person now, well same person but just farther down life’s path. I would interact with her differently and give love less reservedly…at least I would know to try. I would understand, at least I would be aware, that her love language and personality are so different from mine…but just as legit and would work harder to cross that bridge.

            And grace, so much more generous with grace towards faults as I have gotten older.

            Or did age, per se, have anything to do with it? Parenting my child opened my eyes enormously…but loosing her allowed me to learn so much.

            Ironic…in loosing her I learned how to love her more…more generously, more graciously, deeper for who she is…not just her actions toward me…thought of who much I related to her in my love language rather than to her in hers. Did she know how much I loved her?

            And, if she was her, wouldn’t I still be as aggravated and hurt by her usual stuff? (most of our relationship was fine but she did work my nerves at times!) Yes, I would love to have her to talk to daily etc., but she would still be human and imperfect and I wouldn’t fully know what I have in her…because it was loosing her that opened my eyes and allowed me to know myself, see our relationship, see her fully for her and Made me Grow and Learn and mature….but never stopped missing her love and wanting her approval and to share my life with her.

            Looking forward to Heaven and sharing life again with her and other loved ones in perfect, generous love and kindness as we all deserve.

            Liked by 1 person

            1. This is so beautifully shared, thank you. I Get what you are saying in so many ways! I am also thankful that my parents are still planetside so we can continue to learn how to love (& like 🙂 ) each other, in more grace, peace, & joy.

              How far you’ve come in wrestling those personal torments to the mat for the pin & the Win! Congrats!!! God Bless Muchly 🙂

              Like

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